Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mock chop


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. It's likely that mock chops exist but the consensus here is that they are not notable. Ron Ritzman (talk) 01:55, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Mock chop

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Nominating for deletion on behalf of proposed deletion nomination: "No substantial proof has been provided that this 'meat' related food item actually exists. The article appears to be based on rumour and myth. No sources have been provided that suggest this meal is of Scottish origin. Deletion is proposed as being a possible failed item under WP:GNG for not being adequately supported by sources, and per WP:IINFO for being a possible indiscriminate piece of information which if it were merely true,, or even verifiable, does not automatically make it suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia." Proposed deletion was contested at requests for undeletion.   A rbitrarily 0   ( talk ) 01:07, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 01:21, 24 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete. No evidence that this product exists. The source is a passing mention. Otherwise unsourced. I found one mention in a reader's letter to a Dundee newspaper. Certainly no in-depth coverage in RS.  Tigerboy1966  02:28, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete If the item is "almost mythical" there should be more than one source. BigJim707 (talk) 05:51, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete I asked at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Scotland just in case. But, google books etc. shows nothing. Google search shows a rumour chasing its own tail. This appears to be both non-existent and disgusting at once. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 08:54, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Do not delete I have eaten a mock chop. They are a standard part of the menu at chip shops around Perth, Dundee and Blairgowrie, and it would appear this is also the case throughout Angus and Aberdeenshire.  For evidence that it forms part of the standard takeaway menu, please see here: http://www.chinachinaperth.co.uk/chip-shop-menu/, http://www.hongkongperth.co.uk/takeaway.html, http://www.eateasy.co.uk/Angus-takeaways/Dundee-restaurants/De-Niro%60s-DD3-8RE-menu.php?category=FishandChipsCategory.  It is also considered a speciality by 'Speyside Specialities', and is grouped together as 'burgers/mock chop' http://www.speysidespecialities.co.uk/pages/view/products. A mock chop was one of the categories in the Scottish Federation of Meat Traders awards - http://www.craftbutchers.co.uk/index.php?ID=28&CATEGORY=7-Award%20Winning%20Products.  The following, I can verify, is an authentic picture of a battered mock chop with chips (a 'mock chop supper'): http://mockchopsupper.blogspot.com/2011/04/mock-chop-supper.html.  I maintain that the article should be kept, as it refers to a very real product, although it does need a bit of a tidy up and I'm not so sure about the 'mythical' status.  Where I come from, it is just another item on the chip shop menu, akin to white pudding, chips, fried rice, pickled eggs, etc.  I believe it is basically reformed beef (à la beefburger) in the shape of a pork chop (hence 'chop'), fried in batter.  Not particularly healthy, but tasty as an occasional treat. Mcruic (talk) 10:14, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment the above sources are passing mentions on menus apart from one blog which means there is still no in depth coverage in reliable sources. They prove that the food exists, but not that it is notable. If the Scots really eat that stuff they are truly a race of fearless heroes.  Tigerboy1966  10:49, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, one of them says that there's only one other picture of mock chops on the WWW and quotes this Wikipedia article verbatim as its only source. Far from being "authentic", all that that demonstrates is that someone &mdash; against all advice &mdash; uncritically believed a Wikipedia article that has zero sources with identifiable authors. The icing on the cake here is that Mcruic's description of this purported subject is entirely at odds with the article at hand.  So not only is xe showing nothing to demonstrate that either description is accurate, xe is supporting content that xe outright disagrees with.  Of course, a source documenting the subject would settle the issue, but Mcruic hasn't found anything explaining in detail what this purported subject truly is (or even that it's the same thing in different places). Uncle G (talk) 21:46, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete c'mon guys, this is a wee hoaxie, is it not? To be plain, NO RS. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:08, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment For all future reference - this is not a hoax, or a wee hoaxie. Mock chops do exist - I've eaten them.  There is nothing fearless about eating what is basically a beefburger (or lambburger?) in batter.  As for passing reference - the fact that it appears on a menu is enough isn't it?  That makes it at least as notable as the other items on the menu - which appear to have their own pages, or at least be mentioned on other pages.  Also, there is the fact that an award was given for the best mock chop in Scotland (a nationwide contest is surely notable?).  Type (in quotation marks) "mock chop supper" into Google, and you will get 2,540 results.   Many are comments by people who have eaten (and liked) them. Does this make them notable?  Another product of Central Scotland (the 'Tayberry') is largely unknown, even in Tayside, yet has its own page (thus must have been deemed notable). The fact that the chip shops don't go out of their way to promote the mock chop does not make them 'unnotable', as the same can be said of the white pudding, red pudding and black pudding which are found on their menus.  In my opinion, the fact that it is a common chip shop menu staple across a large part of Scotland makes it notable. Mcruic (talk) 15:50, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Carefully-pruned search finds little I'm sure you did. However personal experience doesn't create notability and there are awfully few actual sources out there. Google searches are confounded by music pages of that name, and phrases such as "chop suey" which are unrelated. I ended up with the carefully-pruned search Google for mock chop without music etc which yields just 34 results, none of which are too convincing as reliable sources . Notability isn't established. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:13, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Both of you are wrong in your approach here. Counting Google hits is not research.  You have to actually read the articles that the search engines turn up to see what, if anything, they say.  And notability is not fame nor importance, nor indeed subjective.  A menu does not demonstrate notability, Mcruic, because it doesn't discuss the subject.  There is exactly zero information it imparts for the building of an encyclopaedia article.  Our Primary Notability Criterion is that a topic must be the subject of multiple non-trivial published works by people with good reputations for fact checking and accuracy that are independent of the subject.  You're here to build a verifiably accurate encyclopaedia, remember.  Wikipedia isn't intended to be a grab-bag of half-remembered or plain-made-up-from-whole-cloth hokum.  If there aren't multiple independent published works discussing a topic, Wikipedia doesn't get to have a topic. Uncle G (talk) 21:46, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * On the contrary, I did not rely on counting ghits, nor did I advocate that. As I explained, I filtered away the redundant ghits to reveal that what was left was, on examination, not usable as RS. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:06, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes you did. Your counting and finding the number 34 none too convincing is right there for all to see, above. Uncle G (talk) 08:54, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh I see what you are thinking. I mean, and meant, on examination of the 34, none of them proved too convincing. (I would never have imagined anyone claiming that a mere number could convince...) Read them for yourself. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:06, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * You are wrong in your assumption that I didn't actually read the articles. This is how I was able to say that 'Many are comments by people who have eaten (and liked) them.'  Pandering to published works and the scientific establishment may denote notability, but it ignores a common part of everyday life for a sizeable section of Scottish society in doing so.  That the majority of people who purchase this item happen to be working class may go some way to explaining why this item has not appeared in the omnipotent world of non-trivial publication.  I find the 'half-remembered' comment slightly bemusing and somewhat condescending - the 'plain-made-up-from-whole-cloth hokum' was just superfluity for the sake of it and does little to encourage potential new and valid content to enrich the encyclopaedia and provide knowledge to visitors to Scotland who may wish to know about the local food.  Hardeep Singh Kohli (who has his own Wikipedia page) mentions the mock chop in his weekly Scotland on Sunday column (which is also mentioned on his Wikipedia page).  The reproduction of the Scotland on Sunday article can be found here: http://www.hardeepsinghkohli.co.uk/site/?cat=5&paged=5. In Charles Jennings' book "Faintheart: An Englishman Ventures North of the Border", there is also mention of the mock chop, the author apparently having a mock chop supper in Aberdeen as part of his exploration of Scottish cuisine. "In Aberdeen, he savours a mock-chop supper, but finds it impossible to source a deep-fried Mars bar" [note: has own Wikipedia page].   The review of this book can be found on Page 10 of the 29th July 2001 edition of the Sunday Herald; the reviewer being Alan Taylor. Again, none of these sources explain what a mock chop is - which is frustrating.  They are certainly more common than deep-fried Mars bars, which seem to have become famous (and thus written about) for their unusual nature, despite the fact that practically nobody eats them.   I have taken the liberty of writing to Speyside Specialities, who make mock chops, to ask for ingredients, a description of their product and a photograph, in the hope that at least it will provide the basis for an article.  I am not sure what else can be done to support my cause until someone writes a scholarly article on Scottish fish and chip shop fare.  Even if I could produce a list of 1,000 fish and chip shops that sell the item, complete with sales figures, I'm not even sure that would satisfy the glorious Primary Notability Criterion. Mcruic (talk) 00:55, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.