Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mohsen Emadi (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:20, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

The result was   delete. what a bizarre discussion but we do seem to be in agreement that this isn't sourced with stuff about him so it doesn't cut the mustard. Spartaz Humbug! 19:57, 15 July 2010 (UTC) Relisted per Deletion review/Log/2010 July 15. Regards  So Why  06:53, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Mohsen Emadi
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log  •  )

Fails WP:BIO. Article seems to be well-referenced, but many of those are articles he wrote rather than sources about him (like 2 ref in Jaras). Other references like poets.ir is a website created by the subject, and the other is not a review (as mentioned in the article) but a presentation of an upcoming book. Another reference is from Amazon.com and I couldn't find any relevant to the article. Finally I don't know why an admin kept an article who is partly based on Ahmad Shamlou's article, and the creator just changed the name of Shamlou to Mohsen Emadi!Farhikht (talk) 15:19, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Iran-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 16:52, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Poetry-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 16:52, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 16:53, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

The references No. 1 is a link to the translation of his poetry in a Spanish literary journal. No. 2 refers to radio Farda where is an interview with Mohsen Emadi as a digital publisher of Ahmad Shamlou on Ketab Kuche. References from No. 3 to 8 show some of his research talks and poetry reading in Turkey and around Europe- Spain and Finland. Refrences No. 9 and 10 refer to two main websites Emadi created and manages; one of them- the official website of Ahmad Shamlou is an acclaimed website and Wikipedia and many other websites used it as a main reference for Shamlou. Every writer has the right to create a media and publish his own works, as T.S. Eliot and many others did. 'Iranian Books News Agency' and 'Young Literature of Iran' are two established media that do not publish uncertain information about upcoming books and do not interview writers if the publishing is uncertain. The link to Amazon (reference No.18) is the link of the original book Emadi translated into Persian and the Iranian Books News Agency published the news and interview about the Persian version (reference No. 19). If the user Farhikht is interested in editing the article he can propose an alternative, however deletion is out of the question here. As I informed before, tracing Farhikht's activity show incomprehensible interest in deletion of many other writers involved in election protests in 2009; important and influential authors like Pourmohsen or Alikhani. This way of deletion has two reason: personal problems or political reasons that lie behind these removing activities in order to manipulate with history. The article about Mohsen Emadi was not based on Ahmad Shamlou, but referenced by Clara Janes and Vladimir Holan, the list of Mazandaranian writers, however the used Farhihkt removed his entry from them, as you one can see when tracing his contributions.--Newpoesia (talk) 20:40, 7 July 2010 (UTC)''

Keep: I googled to find out more online sources that prove the nobility and importance of this figure in contemporary Persian literature.--Newpoesia (talk) 02:51, 10 July 2010 (UTC) — Newpoesia (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Keep By tracing all the references, the subject has at least one book translated into Spanish, also six time participation in international events as poet or scholar and one literary Grant. Four secondary source materials namely 'Barcelona Review', 'Adamar', 'The other voice international project' and 'International Poetry Festival of Moncayo' tell the same story as the article. Considering the fact that the subject is an Iranian young poet and important figures like Clara Janes with more than 60 published books in Spanish and Montserrat Abelló i Soler with more than 20 published books in Catalan have translated his poetry, it must be clear that the subject must have acceptable reputation inside his country or must be influential enough to be selected by such a writers. I think the article perhaps need some clean-ups but the notability of the subject is out of question. Finally a hint out of the subject : I dislike both the anger of Farhikht and the enthusiasm of Newpoesia, I prefer to be more rational specially when we are dealing with a living person. --Transcelan (talk) 04:21, 10 July 2010 (UTC) — Transcelan (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Comment: According to WP:AUTHOR, works of Mohsen Emadi has to be the subject of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews, but in fact, many of your sources are the articles by Emadi, and not the articles on him, and the others like poets.ir are not independents from the subject. Take a look at this, which is the main problem of your article. You can't mention an article of Emadi from Jaras (rahesabz.net) and write [Mohsen Emadi]could be considered also as a passionate political activist for the Green Movement and his essays on politics has been published in Jaras reformist website. Other thing that I have to say: Many of what you call reviews not in fact reviews, they are just a news on an upcoming book. I say it again: there is no review on Emadi's work in the reference section.

and no comment for this:
 * From Shamlou's article: Shamlou has translated extensively from German and French to Persian and his own works are also translated into a number of languages. Aside from his first passion which was poetry, he had a number of other activities which included writing stories and film scenarios, contributing to children’s literature, and journalism.
 * From Emadi's article: Mohsen Emadi has translated extensively from English and Spanish to Persian and his own works are also translated into a number of languages. Aside from his first passion which was poetry, he had a number of other activities which included writing stories and film scenarios, contributing to children’s literature, and translation.

And you transle the title of this source (again an article by Emadi) چند تکه حرف پراکنده (literally:some sporadic point) to Student Movement, Green Movement and experience of Islamic Republic? Could you tell me why?

And you write: Mohsen Emadi has translated extensively from English and Spanish to Persian and his own works are also translated into a number of languages but in this source, all I can see is a statement of Emadi on Forough Farrokhzad and the source is not El Pais.Farhikht (talk) 11:20, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Comment This was the exact reason that I left Wikipedia for a long time, efforts of somebody to exaggerate some rhetorical interpretation of himself on an existing article and persisting a lot to fulfill his/her intent and not to see with open eyes: I expressed my opinion before that you can edit or correct the titles and also there could be some challenges on the name selected in the article, but you can not neglect the fact that you are dealing with a notable characters. One can categorize all the references in this article in three different categories: references announcing his book and publication: all the announcements appeared in reliable sources like "Iranian Book News Agency" or "Hamshahri Newspaper". References talking about his participation in International Festivals and Congress which all are known and reliable sources(at least 6 references) and references to his own works and writings to strengthen the fact described in the essay. The similarities between expressions about him and Shamlou could not hide the fact that the subject has translated extensively from English and Spanish to Persian, neglecting his published books, one can see among different literary journals like Bastaar, Vazna and many others (if one persists to neglect poets.ir) that the quantity of his own translations was more than Shamlou's works at least in translating poetry, Shamlou translated about 220 poems and Emadi has at least 500 poems as online publication. It is clear that his responsibilities on Shamlou's works as the only official digital publisher of Shamlou's works was not pleasant for many rivals who did not like to see a young poet could have such a right and it is clear that more than five times they were trying to fight with him in different newspapers and I see those fights came back here in Wikipedia. Farhikht persists that there is no review on his works, first if he agree that he has at least one book published in Spanish translated by Clara Janes, I invite him to read this essay as a review on his works in El Periodico De Aragon Review On Emadi, his works has such an importance that reviewer name him as the Rimbaud of Persian. If you translate the essay entitled as "چند تکه حرف پراکنده" as 'some sporadic points' nobody could understand about the content of the essay but the title chosen could reveal the content and guide the reader of the Wikipedia article. --Transcelan (talk) 13:36, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but predicado.com is not a reliable source, it's a social network of new writers. Is this the only review on his works?Farhikht (talk) 14:28, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * predicado.com published the essay which had been appeared before in newspaper edition of perioco de aragon, I am trying to contact some writer friends who kept the archive and I will let you know if you are that much interested in opposing.--Transcelan (talk) 14:42, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Of course there is too much source about him, just now I could find this interview with him in the same newspaper Iran en Trasmoz--Transcelan (talk) 15:05, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I found the main source of the reference entitled as El Pais in their archive. In this article El Pais uses some explanasion of the subject about Forough Farrokhzad as a valuable description about her poetry. El Pais--Transcelan (talk) 19:28, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I didn't notice that actually the Spanish translation of Forough Farrokhzad appeared by his introduction and it seems that El Pais refers to his introduction on her poetry, I put the reference of the report by BBC on this case among references. --Transcelan (talk) 03:20, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

I can only say that Persian literature is not that well-known in Euro-American zone, as in the case of Asian or African literature itself. There is not a question of notability when a writer from country as specific and closed as Iran regurarly performs at International Poetry Festivals and his books has been translated into foreign languages, therefore this concern of notability occurs very odd to me. There is a dictatorship and strong censorship in Iran. Online publishing gained importance mainly last year after the coup, when there was an unsuccesful effort to break this censorship. I have to express again that what I see is nothing else but a political manipulation which I strongly disagree with.--Newpoesia (talk) 22:40, 14 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Note: I have expressed concern that the users Newpoesia and Transcelan are the same individual using multiple accounts. The discussion on that topic is here.  I mention it here so that the SPI case can be factored in when determining consensus on this AfD.  Further discussion on this topic should be contained in the SPI discussion and should not be expanded or addressed any further here unless it is found that the AfD process has been manipulated.  -- Mufka (u) (t) (c) 15:31, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice.
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
 * Relisted per Deletion review/Log/2010 July 15. Regards  So Why  06:53, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment - a classic example of how ISBN numbers are used as bookselling tools on Wikipedia. Carrite (talk) 15:48, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Here the ISBN numbers have been used to approve the books. If you think they are not necessary we can remove them. I have the books and I approve them.--Transcelan (talk) 16:09, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment Only 4 Gbooks hits, 2 of which are from Books, LLC, which seems to publish copies of Wikipedia articles. Edward321 (talk) 05:05, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment- I tried to clarify some points in the discussion on deletion review that perhaps could be useful here : According to BLP, an article must be NPOV, V and NOR. It seems the first author of the article used Adamar Literary Journal, published in September 2002 as the start point, these are older than Wikipedia article, with almost the same content. This text also appears in Barcelona Review in May 2008; other sources about the subject uses almost the same information(NOR). The article also uses a neutral point of view (NPOV). neglecting four references(self-published online websites) other source of the article have acceptable ranges of verifiability like Olifante, El Periodico de aragon or Radio Farda (V). Another question about the article could be the question of notability and this question is tight to the situation and the ground of notability. If the editors are interested they can just have a look in report on censorship p.34-p.39 to know more about the situation of modern poetry inside Iran. The subject belong to the very first generation of Iranian poets after Islamic revolution that Euro-American society heard their voice and translated them. The censorship inside Iran also restricted western media to know more about a generation of poets and writers who appeared after the revolution. Iran student protests, July 1999 had important role to announce new voices of the country out of the country. The fist book of the subject in Spanish translation by Clara Janes appears in 2003 and the website for National Award for Work of a translator is verifiable enough to approve the book. Notes like Gizonak sugeari written by Kirmen Uribe in Berria and interviews like Iran en Trasmoz in El Periodico de aragon speak about a good coverage about his works. Also his presence in international ground of poetry festivals hold by Olifante or Imac founded by Ernest Benach bring some degrees of significance; the referenced talks of the subject in research and academic ground as in international symposium of Rumi hold by Tukish Government and UNESCO or International Nietzsche Symposium could also support the idea. Also he won the translation grant of FILI hold by Finnish Literature Society that approves his other mentioned activity as translator. While I was searching I found another reference speaking about his presence in Semana Poética hold by Dickinson College, USA. Therefore, I think the article has all the conditions of being restored.--Transcelan (talk) 21:58, 29 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.