Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Montagu Toller


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Withdrawn by nom on the basis of sources provided by Harrias (non-admin closure) BilledMammal (talk) 11:59, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Montagu Toller

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Violates the general criteria of WP:NOTDATABASE, and fails WP:GNG and WP:SPORTCRIT #5. An attempt to find additional sources failed, and WikiProject Cricket was also unable to help.

Prod removed due to them playing first class cricket for a significant cricket club, Somerset County Cricket Club, which may have resulted in significant coverage. BilledMammal (talk) 10:43, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Cricket, Olympics,  and United Kingdom. BilledMammal (talk) 10:43, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment - spiritually speaking, I would say there's a difference between playing for W. G. Grace's Chicken Sandwich XI and a County Championship side. (Not in my opinion but that's by the by). The phrase "may have" implies that the nominator hasn't checked to see if there is coverage. Bobo. 15:30, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The phrase "may have" implies that the nominator hasn't checked to see if there is coverage. - I've checked, and WP:CRICKET has been consulted, but no significant coverage was found. That does not mean significant coverage does not exist, but it does need to be found to keep this article. BilledMammal (talk) 01:00, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm adding a bit more stuff to the discussion at the cricket wiki project. Gut feeling is that a series of redirects is probably in order, but there are certainly some sources out there in print which could be used to add some details about some of these chaps. I'd argue for some patience and an alternative approach as more might come out and then we'd lose article histories. Blue Square Thing (talk) 08:33, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment. I have pinged the two cricket editors who did much of the work on Somerset cricket, just waiting for them to reply. StickyWicket (talk) 08:39, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
 * As above on Bowerman, and as outlined on the Cricket Project talkpage, the first volume of the Somerset Cricketers series will have a section on Toller, as on all players from 1882. My copy is not currently with me, and it will take me a few weeks to be reunited with it. Johnlp (talk) 22:46, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Based on your comment at WP:CRICKET, I don't believe it would count towards GNG; sources that attempt to cover everyone within a group are routine coverage for that group and do not contribute to notability. Further, it is only one source, and we need multiple to meet WP:GNG. BilledMammal (talk) 00:09, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
 * ROUTINE does not apply to people. BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:07, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Per WP:NSPORT, routine applies to sportspeople. BilledMammal (talk) 15:24, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
 * But it doesn't say that this kind of coverage is routine. BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:29, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
 * How does notdatabase apply? BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:32, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Data should be put in context with explanations referenced to independent sources. An article sourced entirely to databases, as this one is, cannot put the data in context. BilledMammal (talk) 15:37, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I disagree. BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:53, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
 *  Strong keep for now at least . We're going to need to wait and see what sources can get to. I've used this sort of guide regularly to source articles and they are almost always authoritative and generally written by experts in their field. On occasion, however, they end up saying "we know nothing about this bloke". That may be the case here, although I doubt it due to his Olympic involvement. If it is I'm sure we can revisit the article and decide to redirect it to the list of Somerset cricketers. Blue Square Thing (talk) 20:17, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
 * With the work added by Harrias, there's clearly now enough here for a reasonable pass of GNG - the sum of the parts of the references clearly add up to enough. Blue Square Thing (talk) 11:49, 8 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Keep. Johnlp is a highly competent editor, so I trust his source will provide a good level of depth for the subject. StickyWicket (talk) 13:49, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Even if you don't consider the coverage routine, it is not known whether the source contains WP:SIGCOV of the subject, and even if it does we need multiple examples of SIGCOV. At the moment, we cannot keep the article, per WP:SPORTCRIT #5 and WP:GNG. BilledMammal (talk) 22:25, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * We can keep it for a period of time to see whether sources can be found - that's an utterly reasonable and pragmatic approach to the situation here. Fwiw I imagine the Somerset source does meet the SPORTCRIT point (and GNG obvs); it seems to in other cases. In any case, there are clear ATD here which can be used - there is absolutely no need to delete the article. Blue Square Thing (talk) 06:23, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
 * In two weeks, we have found one source that might contain significant coverage. That isn't enough to keep the article, although a redirect would be suitable - if WP:GNG is met in the future, then the article can be restored with that coverage. BilledMammal (talk) 13:53, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep, added some more information, and I think there is enough around to demonstrate notability. Harrias  (he/him) • talk 21:37, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for adding those sources. I can only access four of them, but none of those include significant coverage - can you provide additional information on the coverage in "Sunshine, Sixes and Cider" and "Somerset Cricketers 1882 – 1914" and whether it is WP:SIGCOV? BilledMammal (talk) 09:01, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Sunshine, Sixes and Cider is little more than a passing mention, while Somerset Cricketers 1882 – 1914 is a two page biography. I'm having a look through some newspaper sources today, will see what there is. Harrias  (he/him) • talk 09:08, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Added a bit more from some contemporary newspapers. The coverage makes it pretty clear that he was a prominent rugby player in Devon at the time, and he receives a lot of local coverage. Most of it is relatively trivial; mentions of his performance in games for Devon or Barnstaple, but he also receives a good length profile in the Western Evening Herald (this one ). There is also a reasonable amount of very local coverage for his role in local politics, but nothing there that really meets SIGCOV alone. All put together though, I think there is enough for GNG. Harrias  (he/him) • talk 10:05, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Weak keep I think there's just enough here for a GNG pass, although a weak one at that. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 08:50, 8 May 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.