Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Montecristo No. 4


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Montecristo (cigar).  Arbitrarily0  ( talk ) 12:30, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Montecristo No. 4

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

De-PROD'd. Monetecristo as a brand is certainly notable - and I would support a redirect - but this individual product does not appear to meet GNG in and of itself. Comment on talk page suggests that coverage "may" be available in libraries, but based on the searches I made in GBooks snippets, that is unlikely to be true. The index of the Cuban Cigar Handbook mentions the No. 4 only on one page (the same page as other numbered cigars from the brand), indicating minimal coverage. Ultimate Cigar Book doesn't mention it. Shanken's Cigar Handbook does, but only in a single sentence. The Cigar Handbook doesn't mention it at all, nor does the Cigar Companion, except to note its length. The Havana Cigar notes some basic stats but doesn't seem to otherwise discuss it.

The TLDR version is that I can't find any indication that there actually is a greater amount of coverage lurking in books. Most books don't seem to mention it at all, or if they do, it's only in tables of statistics. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 21:37, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Products and Cuba. &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 21:37, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Weak keep. Several sources state it is the number one selling Cuban cigar in the world, and makes up nearly half of all Cuban cigars exported every year. See (visible in snippet view), and  Cigar Aficianado (can see the fact in the search engine blurb but not snippet view on page 34; it reads "The Montecristo No. 4, a petit corona measuring 5 inches long by 42 ring gauge thick, is, with the exception of the United States, Cuba's largest selling cigar.")4meter4 (talk) 22:05, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Simply being best-selling is not within the notability criteria anywhere on Wikipedia. If no one has bothered to write anything more in-depth about it than a single sentence, clearly being best-selling is not that important (and may not even be true - best-selling according to what stats, collected by which authority?). &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 22:54, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
 * It's clear that the next sentence is continuing a longer discussion on the cigar, but it's not available for viewing beyond that. I suspect, although I can't prove, that these sources do have in-depth coverage and are not merely passing mentions. Hence the weak keep.4meter4 (talk) 01:15, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relisting to consider Merge option since I don't think either Keep contradicts the deletion nomination argument. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 23:33, 29 October 2022 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 20:51, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep. As usual with PMC, the nom has misrepresented what I said in my deprod. I did not say that coverage "may" be available in libraries, I said that coverage definitely is available.  The source I cited was The Cuban Cigar Handbook, Simon and Schuster ISBN 1646431065.  There is also The Cigar Companion, ISBN 0785838422.  What I did say was that I couldn't tell the depth of coverage from gbook snippets.  Funny how that got twisted around into a WP:THEREMUSTBESOURCES argument.  I would go along with a merge, so long as it was a genuine merge and not deletion by redirect.  We should at least retain that it is claimed to be the best selling Cuban, and the tasting notes, although somewhat subjective, are still encyclopaedic information. SpinningSpark 09:07, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Ah, cheers, SpinningSpark, I always love the way you extend good faith to me. If you don't know for a fact that information exists in a library (some hypothetical library that you've not named or visited), then you're assuming that it exists. In other words, it "may" be there. It may not be.
 * I did already mention (and link) those two books in my nomination. Based on my searching through them via available snippets, neither appears to have significant coverage of the product. (As a side note, the Handbook is actually published by Cider Mill Press, and only distributed by Simon and Schuster.) &spades;PMC&spades; (talk) 11:30, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
 * It is no longer distributed by Simon and Schuster. It was recently bought by HarperCollins.4meter4 (talk) 03:37, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Merge to Montecristo (cigar). Just dug around in the Internet Archive library for a bit and coming back empty handed, merger to the brand, where it can be handled in summary style, is the smartest way to handle this. czar  04:53, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Merge This article says that the #4 is the best-selling cigar, while Montecristo (cigar) says that the #2 is! Hopefully consolidating the content will help to weed out errors like this. MrsSnoozyTurtle 01:50, 13 November 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.