Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Montgomery Upper Middle School (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. ‑Scottywong | gab _ 02:16, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Montgomery Upper Middle School
AfDs for this article: 
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Non notable middle school. Jacona (talk) 00:51, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of New Jersey-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:25, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:26, 8 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Neutral - In the old days, consensus was to almost always keep articles on Blue Ribbon Schools, and while I tend to be conservative on policies, I don't know that it's still the case today. This article has been around since 2006, and has survived a previous AfD discussion in 2010, albeit an AfD discussion which failed to establish consensus.  The article definitely needs clean-up. Deletionists are a lot like code enforcement in my opinion, and one can interpret that in whatever way he pleases.  PCHS-NJROTC  (Messages) 02:52, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Additional comment - I would like to add that I am not a fan of Jacona's blanket redirection of middle school articles based on a guideline, apparently with complete disregard for any previous discussion or actual article content, and his failure to actually merge any of the content into the articles which he redirects them to. I think his rationale is that most middle schools are not notable, so he's going to purge the encyclopedia of all MS articles. I could similarly say that most teenaged girls are not notable and purge the encyclopedia of all articles about any female between the ages of 13 and 18 (including celebrities), but that would be silly. I vote for speed reversion of all of his recent redirects. PCHS-NJROTC  (Messages) 12:06, 8 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks! I appreciate your concern. Certainly these articles fall into three groups.  Those which are not notable, those which are, and those which are of uncertain notability.  I have made an effort to remove those which are not notable, which is the vast majority of middle school articles, as can be seen by AfD discussions, WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES, and other methods.  I have made a few mistakes (I believe the number to be quite small), in which the redirect has been reverted.  My thanks to the editors who have helped by reverting and my apologies for these mistakes.  As to the third group, those of uncertain notability, this is the appropriate place to discuss them.  Since there are thousands of "Blue Ribbon Schools", many of them self-nominated, I don't think that is ipso facto notability.  And I believe that the "No Concensus" AfD discussion of 2010 is far more likely to result in deletion today, based on the outcomes of AfD's in the meantime. Thanks again for airing your differences, that is how progress is made! Jacona (talk) 15:24, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
 * You're welcome - It's always nice to see fellow Wikipedians not get mad when someone disagrees with them. :-) As for the blanket redirections, I agree with User:Balloonman, a former sysop who used to be very proactive in RfD. He was tough on anyone who showed interest in participating in the speedy deletion process, because he believed that sysops who would be too hasty in deletions would do great harm to the project, possibly more harm than good. By all means be bold, but in the future, I would suggest not redirecting articles unless you're sure that it's the right move; I would oppose further mass redirecting. After all, there is a reason why school articles are not eligible for speedy deletion. ;) PCHS-NJROTC  (Messages) 19:54, 8 July 2014 (UTC)


 * It's all about making Wikipedia better, after all! While I may have been overly aggressive in redirecting some schools in New Jersey, I don't feel that this is one of them.  "Blue Ribbon" schools run in the thousands and there is no further rationale for notability in this article. If one searches Wikipedia for middle schools, you will find that most US states have very few and often no middle school articles. I will definitely be more careful, I generally search for previous nrhp and for any significant coverage by reliable sources, but may miss previous AfD discussions. Jacona (talk) 20:20, 8 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep (and Revert Redirects) Among articles for schools in New Jersey, where I'm more attuned to content, 32 articles were turned into redirects in the span of 37 minutes. Many of this knee-jerk removal of content was done with no analysis of potential notability nor any real check if the article was for a middle school, as articles for school districts, high schools and places on the National Register of Historic Places were all wiped out in this sweep of middle schools. With an average of 69 seconds spent on each article, assuming the whole time was spent on review, it's hard to imagine that anything was done to evaluate the articles. Based on Jacona's edits, the redirects created contain a statement that "This is a redirect from a school article that may have had very little information. The information from this article has probably been merged into an appropriate location or school district page." Unfortunately, many of these articles had significant amounts of information and the work of analyzing content and merging it into "into an appropriate location or school district page" was never done. Not once was there any merge of content, not for the schools in New Jersey nor for any of the hundreds of other such schools nationwide. SCHOOLOUTCOMES is an essay. That's it and nothing more. As the essay states, the "page is not a policy or guideline, and previous outcomes do not bind future ones because consensus can change". We have policies for a reason and consensus is a big part of that. We need to return to the status quo ante and do our job. No Wikipedia editor is granted the authority to disregard consensus and use an essay as a cudgel to turn hundreds of articles into redirects. Alansohn (talk) 18:07, 8 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment Thanks for your opinions, Alonsohn! The verbage you refer to is the text of the template  .  Since you feel it is inadequate, perhaps you should help refine the template. Jacona (talk) 19:07, 8 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep (and Revert Redirects). Seems notable.  And perhaps it is time to revise the schools notability criteria, to allow development of more schools articles.  Standards for what should be included should be set up though;  a shorter article is appropriate here IMHO (but that is not for AFD). -- do  ncr  am  23:15, 8 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep. It wouldn't be deleted anyway per the  long-standing precedent as documented at WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES -  which  is simply  a review of the facts as they  are and neither a policy  nor  a guideline. Nevertheless, the 100s of redirects in  the 'R from School' cat are ample evidence alone of the way  the community  has generally  agreed to  treat  such  creations. And in  this case where arguably  its Blue Ribbon  status is a criterion  for many  Americans that  their schools are notable enough  for a Wikipedia article I  will  concur with  those who  wish  to  keep  this article, although  our rationales may  differ somewhat. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 15:50, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep. Despite its disparagers the Blue Ribbon is still the highest award for US schools, its award is generally accompanied by significant publicity, and I am not seeing the WP:BEFORE search for sources to test compliance with WP:ORG. Though most middle schools are considered nn, in this case the project will benefit more from allowing expansion and improvement rather than deletion. The Whispering Wind (talk) 01:23, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep as middle/high schools are notable & per long-standing precedent stated at WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES . – Davey 2010 •  (talk)  23:28, 13 July 2014 (UTC)


 * No, WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES says most middle schools are merged or redirected in AfD.
 * That'll teach me for pasting the same answer!. – Davey 2010 •  (talk)  00:21, 14 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment on Blue Ribbon schools. Apparently, there are actually 7,000 schools that have been denoted as "Blue Ribbon" schools.
 * I took a glance at middle school/blue ribbon AfDs initiated in the past two years that I could find. Two were redirected. See  Castillero Middle School (San Jose, California) Afd (where user:Cullen wrote: "There have been over 5,000 Blue Ribbon school awards, and the program is based on a self-assessment. These routine awards don't make a middle school notable, in my opinion."). And Joaquin Miller Middle School (San Jose, California) AfD. One was speedy deleted; Our Lady of Lourdes Catholic Church (Raleigh, North Carolina) AfD.  And one that closed as a keep; see Calcedeaver Elementary School AfD.
 * In short, of the 4 articles I found, 2 were redirected, 1 was deleted, and 1 was kept -- not quite an endorsement that being a Blue Ribbon school per se is sufficient. Others are welcome to do their own search, and see what they find.
 * And the fact that there are so many of these schools raises a question -- are those that think Blue Ribbon status is sufficient to qualify a middle school as notable really suggesting that we now allow all 7,000 such schools to now be added to wp? Seems like a lot, compared to the number of schools we currently have on wp. Epeefleche (talk) 21:58, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.