Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Moodkiller


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result of the debate was early close due to article being blanked by author -- Fr a ncs2000 10:42, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Moodkiller
Speedy tag removed by author w/no comments. nn WP:AUTO myspace musician - google on artist name plus album title gets 0 hits, on artist name alone only 600 but many false positives Jamoche 17:09, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

sorry this was an accident - didn't mean to remove it. New to uploading stuff to wikipedia.

The album title is self released and available by digital download when requested to the artist direct. she is an evironmentalist who is making music available in a new way - not about economies of scale - the success of an artist should not be about how many records they sell. She is currently undertaking her MA in Music Business Managment and her thesis in on 'Music and its Impact on the Environment'.

I am not sure what false positives mean ?

I feel moodkiller is a worthy artist who has been working under this name for sometime - she is about to trademark the name as well - she owns the domain name and myspace name.

132.185.240.121 18.45 15 May 06
 * False positives means that most of the Google hits were not for this person, so that the actual number is something significantly less than 600. Band notability doesn't depend on number of albums sold, or we'd only have articles on people who make the Billboard charts. Anyone can get a trademark, domain name, or myspace name - myspace is very popular for self-published musicians, so that's not really "making it available in a new way". Also the article was created by Moodkiller, which indicates it may be a vanity article (though that's not in itself criteria for deletion, if other editors come along and improve it; sometimes that happens as a result of the AfD process)--Jamoche 18:08, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Delete - Article started by a user of the same name, so this is a strong candidate for a Vanity delete. --cholmes75 18:00, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

ok that all makes sense - but what does google hits have to do with her credibilty as an artist and the worth of her creative contributions - she is an established artist in her own right. I am her Manager Mazen Murad we keep everything under the same user name.
 * It's not so much the number of hits (though that's a factor) it's that they didn't turn up anything that would establish band notability. --Jamoche 19:00, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Deletion has nothing to do with "her credibilty as an artist and the worth of her creative contributions". You should not feel this is based on that. It is based on her lack of notability. Wikipedia does not document little-known artists. Fan1967 19:02, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

really ? I am aware of other 'little known' artists on wikipedia - also I wanted to say distributing music by consumer request is a new thing to do - mp3 for widescale use has been around for about 6 years - before that it was all physical sound carrier format - going way back to good old Thomas Edison and the phonograph. So I would dispute this is still a new and developing means for distributing music - especially seeing the actual music industy is still relatively challenged by it.
 * Comment Distributing mp3's for download is routinely done by every teenager with a garage band and a myspace page. Realistically, Wikipedia has to set standards higher than that. Try reading the guidelines at WP:MUSIC. Fan1967 19:11, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the fact she distributes mp3s has anything to do with her credibility of being on wikipedia - feature films, composing music that wins awards, having her work used by MTV UK is not notable enough? Nor is the fact that Terence McKenna requested to work with her on his Australian tour - I am intrigued by your definition of higher standards.
 * This certainly needs more documentation than you've provided. First of all, you claim she has credits under two totally separate names other than this one. That can raise some red flags on verifiability. She "collaborated with" someone who had a song featured in a film. What does that mean? She wrote backup music for a travelling speaker. Kind of iffy. Can you provide some documentation on the Pavo Cristatus album? Google returns results on the bird. It may be that she does meet the standards, but we need more than a website and a myspace page for verification. Fan1967 19:34, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete as a failure of WP:MUSIC unless someone provides some reliable sources that prove otherwise. --Hetar 19:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

please see links provided now on article page - will provide more in a minute

http://www.libertyinrestraint.com/crew.html

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=33488 (scroll down to Skin review)(makes Tammy Brennan and Pavo Cristatus connection)

http://justinecooper.com/scyn_synopsis.html ( shows history with Justine Cooper and myself working with Moodkiller as her long time manager and producer)

http://www.imastering.co.uk/engineers/mazen_murad (this is me, proof I am a sound technician)

http://www.endorphinmusic.com/bio.htm (shows calibre of Endorphin and proves the tracks were on the movie - under fast facts)

another link http://pandora.nla.gov.au/nph-arch/2000/S2000-Nov-2/http://www.immedia.com.au/im_m/archive/000215-195/eliezer.html

to a news paper article that discusses another CD compilation that Pavo Cristatus were included on - scroll to Fahey Returns

http://www.internationaldigitalart.com/Harries/harriesonline/pages/INV_hall_videostill.htm ( proof 'Saved By Science' won the National Digital Art Prize - scroll to bottom to see our names again accredited for the sound design

http://shop.chicagopride.com/shop/item_display.cfm/varasin/B00004SF7D ( another compilation with Pavo Cristatus)

http://www.gemm.com/item/PAVO--CRISTATUS/PAVO--CRISTATUS/GML759925371/ (someone is selling a second hand Pavo CD from England)

This is all I can currently find on the net - a lot of her work and press is not commented on or archived on the internet.

Lastly, I have already located two great, but very unkown bands on wikipedia - yet seem to have been allowed to post an article.


 * Delete on grounds of vanity. The included links are very nice and all, but hardly evidence of notability. Nothing was linked to regarding anything high profile, such as said films or MTV UK usage. -- Consumed Crustacean | Talk | 22:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete per Hetar and concerns about WP:VAIN violations. -- Scientizzle 22:56, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

wow this is like a modern day lynching - extremely interesting stuff here. Can you please explain how other non high profile bands are on wikipedia ? Please note the links to the films and MTV UK are at the actual article - but here you go anyway, bu t please review all the links provided in the article as well.
 * Comment Please don't take this personally. Guidelines such as WP:MUSIC help to sift through the deluge of (currently) small-time bands and artists. Wikipedia is not an advertising service for new or struggling artists, it is an ecyclopedia, and therefore a subject can and should only be included if already notable. -- Scientizzle 23:23, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/review/film/s130454.htm

http://www.clicksuperstar.com

Also - I am also interested to know why it is that notability is defined by returned search engine results - is it now that success is defined by how much evidence of a persons career is on the internet?
 * Comment Well, we could always just take everyone's word that they're a famous musician. Of course, that way, we'd end up with an article on every teenager who's learned to play three chords. The fact is that, in 2006, if you're not being talked about on the internet significantly, then you're probably someone playing local clubs and haven't yet broken out. Fan1967 23:18, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

my question as to why other 'unknown' bands who are still playing local clubs are on wikipedia - has not been answered. I never said Moodkiller was famous - she is a very accomplished musician.


 * Comment Many unknown musicians are still on Wikipedia because no one's noticed the article and targeted them for deletion. If you've seen some who don't satisfy WP:MUSIC please let us know. It is about notability. If someone's a very talented musician with no significant releases, that practically nobody's heard of, they don't meet the standards. Fan1967 23:28, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Surely social networking counts ? that's very internet 2006 - moodkiller's 780 fans online with over 152 direct comments - that is internet activity is it not? Myspace isn;t just utilised by the unkown either - every band uses it to connect and get internet activity happening around their music.Her myspace profile grows by the day.

I will reiterate - evidence presented shows Moodkiller is certainly not 'practically nobody' playing local clubs. Her work is international and at a sophisticated level. She is 'heard' of and her work is 'known'. She has had a significant release with Pavo Cristatus - the print sold 1500 copies and the duo have been on many compilations that have also sold well. She has been on national and international radio. She has been reviewed in notable print music press. She has been a guest co writer on Australian Dance Act of the year in 2000 with Endorphin and the track was used on a recognised Australian Feature Film. She has worked with MTV and had her music used nationally on the TV Lynx Click Superstar series - promos which are around every bus stop in central London. Again something I would consider beyond a 'practically nobody playing around local clubs'. But hey I only work as a mastering engineer for London's premier recording studio the 'metropolis group' with clients like Pink, Iron Maiden, Jamiroquai etc - so what would I know about notable musicians? I would also like to say that during the course of this discussion the article has been edited and improved to meet the wiki standard.

A point to note- while the above mentioned google search does not reveal an acceptable number of site this does not mean the artist in question is not "notable". I have spent many years in Australia involved with other bands and from past experience know that much of what is published in print media never makes it onto the internet. I am also aware that many radio staions including the major national youth network triple j, do not always publish playlists. As a typical Sydneysider I was definitely aware of Pavo Cristatus and could guess that for every CD purchased, several were copied.

From where I am in Japan I am also familiar with Moodkiller and know she has a growing following among underground gothic-type scenes here. It must also be noted that on certain Japanese peer to peer sites such as "mixi", Western names are often written in Japanese, sometimes using several different spellings based on pronunciation, and therefore would not come up in a google search. While I understand Wiki endeavours to maintain certain standards, soley basing the basis for publication or deletion on google hits seems to be quite limiting.
 * It's not just based on google - that's why we have this process. AfD isn't just a vote, it's a discussion process that exposes a questionable article to a larger audience so that it can be improved. The article as originally written set off several warning flags - and most of the time the articles like that disappear uncontested because they really are just vanity by garage bands on myspace. --Jamoche 13:47, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete. The links provided so far fail to establish real notability, and it concerns me more than anything else that the article appears to be written by the subject. Kuzaar 16:50, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete per above. Stifle (talk) 17:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete Based on what I see, I don't see enough to justify keeping. An album that sold 1500 copies? 152 posts on her web forum? Sounds pretty minor league to me. Fan1967 02:47, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

According to a comment from Jamoche (please read above) 'Band notability doesn't depend on number of albums sold, or we'd only have articles on people who make the Billboard charts.' So Fan1967 - what exactly is your point? Apart from the fact it sounds like you only have commercial music tastes.

She actually has over 1601 profile views on her myspace profile with 2016 total plays - currently has 786 friends - not every one leaves a comment on a myspace page. That number grows organically - numbers which are significanlty higher than the 'unknown' bands that still remain listed on Wikipedia.

note further article editing has taken place.
 * Comment. Please read WP:MUSIC. - Fan1967 15:18, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Make that "only on number of albums" - someone could be influential without being a top seller. It's a contributing factor, not the sole criteria, but there is a point at which the number is so low that it really is non-notable. --Jamoche 18:53, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

yes I have and according to criteria listed she meets it under the following: As a lyricist who wrote and performed lyrics on two tracks on an album that chartered in Australia and won best album in 2000 at the Australian Dance Awards - Skin was released by major label Sony. Of which Anguish was featured on the Australian Feature Film Looking for Alibrandi. Moodkiller is Tammy Brennan. The chain of events proving this have already been presented.

http://www.endorphinmusic.com/music2.htm (please not also that Endorphin has supported Massive Attack, Faithless and Portishead) http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=385547

another article/interview where it is fully established that Tammy Brennan was on the album - http://www.verstaerker.com/sitephp/artists/artist.php?d=Endorphin

notice mention of Pavo Cristatus (again)

dspace.flinders.edu.au/dspace/bitstream/2328/183/1/CDRevARAug00.pdf another review

http://www.vivamusic.com/dance/cd_endorphin.htm

http://dspace.flinders.edu.au/dspace/handle/2328/183

success or notoriety of an artist needs to take into account all album sales - so if you factor in tracks appearing on the compilations she has appeared on (4), the Pavo album, being a writer on 'Skin' etc, along with the EP downloads that take place off her myspace - significant numbers. Oh and the UK MTV Airplay with the Lynx Click Series - three tracks used - that is national broadcast is it not?
 * Comment Myspace downloads are worth basically nothing. The 1500 copies of the Pavo album, not much more. What's left seems to be entirely supporting work on other people's projects. Fan1967 04:11, 18 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.