Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Moytoy I


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone  01:07, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Moytoy I


An editor, User:Natty4bumpo, has expressed the concern that the article is on a non-existent individual, but has not been able to list an AFD. I've now done so for him. Firsfron of Ronchester 00:53, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The concept of a "Moytoy I" is part of the broader myth of the "House of Moytoy", a fantasy dreamed up by genealogist with an active imagination, one that has its basis in an affair between a representative of the Province of Carolina named Alexander Cumming who attempted to gain control over the Cherokee by proclaiming the headman of one of the Overhill Cherokee towns, Great Tellico, as "Emperor of the Cherokee". As part of this effort, he sent seven delegates from the Cherokee, who at that time were organized by towns rather than as a "nation", to England to meet the King of Great Britain, George II.  Once there, they complained of their treatment by Cumming, which resulted in his dismissal.


 * That Moytoy, Moytoy of Tellico, is the first recorded person to be known by that corruption of that name ("Amatoya" in Cherokee), and neither he, nor his father (whose name is, in fact, unknown) used designating numbers such as were used by the dynasties of Europe. "Moytoy I" is, in fact, an invention by imaginative geneaolgists to provide a lineage for the fictitious "House of Moytoy", a concept based on European ideas of patrilineal family structure, patriarchal society, and hereditary rulers imposed on the fabric of the matrilineal, quasi-matriarchal Cherokee who have never at any time in their history had hereditary rulers.  No source from the time, nor any credible recent history, of the Cherokee ever mentions a "Moytoy I".  Moytoy of Tellico, designated "Moytoy II" in the "House of Moytoy" myth, would not have been considered related to his own father since at the time Cherokee belonged to the clan of their mother.


 * A further part of this myth, echoed in the referenced Shawnee Heritage I, is that the members of the "House of Moytoy" used that appellation as a family surname. Surnames were not used among the Cherokee until the late 18th century after the end of the wars of that period when Cherokee society began to change and become more accultured, which weakens the credibility of the afore-mentioned "source".


 * The further fiction of the "House of Moytoy" being descended from "Thomas Carpenter" of the Anglo-Irish baronial family of Carpenter is based on the fact that a later leader of the Cherokee from Chota named Attakullakulla, whom the English and the colonists called "Little Carpenter". According to this aspect of the myth, he was so-called because of his descent from the afore-mentioned Anglo-Irish family.  In fact, Attakullakulla was so-called because his Cherokee name translates as "Leaning wood", for the "Carpenter", while the "Little" was a reference to his diminuitive physical stature, much the same way as the whites called Ca-Nun-Tah-Cla-Kee ("He who walks on the ridge") by the name "The Ridge" and Tsiyugunsini ("He is dragging his canoe") by the name "Dragging Canoe".


 * That part of the myth has Thomas Carpenter leading his family from danger of attacks by the Iroquois to the area of the Five Lower Towns (Running Water, Lookout Mountain, Nickajack, Crow, and Long Island, the latter of which the myth's proponents for some reason replace with Chota, which was over a hundred miles to the northeast) in 1675, a time when that area, even by Cherokee legend, was well within the territory of the Muskogee. In fact, the so-called Five Lower Towns were established by Dragging Canoe in 1782 when he led his followers further west from their then current home in the Chickamauga (now Chattanooga, Tennessee) region to give them greater distance from the Anglo-American colonists and the protection provided by the mountains and the various navigation hazards of the Tennessee River Gorge.


 * Given these facts, the reference from Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the United Kingdom, Extant, Extinct or Dormant provides no support for the article's contentions.


 * Regarding the "information" from the "Cherokee Documentation Center", it is based on the same pop history as the "House of Moytoy" myth and its Carpenter corollary, not on actual research. The purpose of the Cherokee Documentation Center, as stated on their website, is to assist persons wishing to document their right to join a "Cherokee tribe" of their choice, even if they do not have the credentials to join the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians, or the United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians.  These three are the only federally-recognized and only legitimate tribes of Cherokee.  The Center, on the other hand, considers such state-recognized groups of highly questionable validity as the "Georgia Band of Eastern Cherokee", which its website specifically names, as legitimate "tribes" of Cherokee.  The three actually legitimate tribes, meanwhile, have never recognized such groups, and two of them, the CNO and the Eastern Band, have joined together in pursuit of legal action against the "Cherokee Documentation Center", the "Georgia Band of Eastern Cherokee", and other such groups. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 02:38, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


 * TLDR: This person, supposedly so central to Cherokee history, appears only in online amateur genealogy sources. His existence is not mentioned in any reliable source we've been able to find, including those specifically dealing with Cherokee leadership and political structure at the time. WillOakland (talk) 23:28, 11 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Talking about WP:TLDR, the above rationale is about three times longer than the article itself. MuZemike 06:12, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete, no reliable source for this person's existence and plenty of reason to doubt it. The only published work, Shawnee Heritage I, is self-published through lulu.com. WillOakland (talk) 12:42, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete: no reliable 3rd party sources. JamesBurns (talk) 07:52, 9 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.