Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mr. Greek


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. The decision comes down to the quality of the sources. In defense of the article, an impressive number of sources were proffered, but a closer analysis shows that they fail independence critera, or only mention the subject in passing. This analysis seems to have been endorsed by a large majority of the participants and I find no convincing arguments in rebuttal. While any reliable source can be used to verify a claim in an article even if it is not in-depth, satisfying notability requirements generally requires independent sourcing that goes beyond what you would find in a directory or a press release.

(As a tip to AFD participants defending an article by presenting sources: Try to limit yourself to a few very good sources, don't throw everything up and see what sticks. Trying to overwhelm the discussion with dozens of weak sources is counterproductive as any good sources you do have end up being buried in the haystack.)

Finally, the fact that much of the article appears promotional in nature, and sourced to content sponsored by the restaurant chain (for example the content in the "Awards" section) does count against keeping the article. While such problems are in theory surmountable, the presence of content that appears to advertise a company is seriously detrimental to the reputation of Wikipedia as a neutral non-commercial website. If the article were kept these parts of the article would have to be removed or sourced to something more neutral and reliable. Sjakkalle (Check!)  21:29, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Mr. Greek

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Run-of-the-mill restaurant chain, reads like an advertisement. Not a single reference that I can locate meets the criteria for establishing notability, there is no in-depth information on the company and no "Independent Content" on the company. There are reviews of individual restaurants and the food that is served but this does not help to establish notability for the company. Topic fails NCORP/GNG.  HighKing++ 13:35, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions.  HighKing++ 13:35, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 13:41, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ontario-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 13:41, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Not a single reference that I can locate meets the criteria for establishing notability, there is no in-depth information on the company and no "Independent Content" on the company. I have no doubt they exist online.  I will do some work.Grmike (talk) 06:27, 28 April 2020 (UTC)grmike


 * Keep largest Greek restaurant chain in Canada, first ever Greek restaurant opened in Kuwait, and UAE feature article in Toronto Life . Feature article in Canadian Businesss Franchise  - a lot of indepth information in a major magazine.   - google books the greek community quote - "In the last 20 years Mr. Greek has become on of the largest food chains in Toronto".  owns naming rights to restaurants south of the border in the United States.   toronto star full article - "Mr. Greek established Middle Eastern toehold" = When the company expanded from the Danforth to Scarborough in 1992, it was the first multi-location Greek restaurant in the GTA.  Toronto Sun full article  "Mr. Greek was voted Toronto’s favourite by Readers’ Choice Awards for 22 consecutive years."  mention in the globe and mail .  the Mr.Greek name used in the USA is patent owned by the Toronto franchise .  The Financial Post  Fast-food restaurants eating into full-service sector market share.  owner is board member of "hellenic canadian academic association of Ontario"  .  Greek City Times  = There are a large variety of eateries available to Torontonians that need to satisfy their Greek food cravings. Some of these restaurants include, the longstanding Mr. Greek .  Pacific/Prairie Newspaper  .  mention in CBC News  .Worldcon - toronto for visiting sf folks  - There are also several Greek food chain restaurants, with Mr Greek being the commonest. - larget and fastest growing chain in canada .  Grmike (talk) 07:12, 28 April 2020 (UTC)grmike
 * founder George Raios carried the olympic torch for the 2010 winter olympics. the name for fire in greek is floga.  in 2019 he opened Mr.Greek's first floga store which places more of an emphasis on Greek gastronomy.Grmike (talk) 08:26, 28 April 2020 (UTC)grmike
 * "It's All Greek To Me" - Canadian Franchisee Business Magazine does a five page feature article on Mr. Greek, its history and its owner George Raios.Grmike (talk) 08:33, 28 April 2020 (UTC)grmike


 * Comment I appreciate that took a lot of time. But based on the references you've provided above, all 17 of them, I think you are confusing the standard required from a reference in order to support a fact or assertion within an article (essentially WP:RS) and the standard required from a reference to meet the criteria for establishing notability (which is a lot stricter). The criteria for establishing notability for companies/organizations is for multiple sources (at least two) of significant coverage with in-depth information *on the company* and (this bit is important!) containing "Independent Content". "Independent content", in order to count towards establishing notability, must include original and independent opinion, analysis, investigation, and fact checking that are clearly attributable to a source *unaffiliated to the subject*. Let's take a look at each of those 17 references:
 * This from Toronto Life and https://www.thestar.com/business/2014/02/19/mr_greek_establishes_middle_eastern_toehold.html this from The Star] are short articles where the contents rely entirely on information provided by the company and/or CEO and provides no in-depth information on the company. They relate to the same interview and carry the same quotations, fails WP:ORGIND and WP:CORPDEPTH
 * This from Canadian Business Franchise and also this are interviews with entrepreneurs who bought a Mr. Greek franchise. There is no "Independent Content" nor any in-depth information on the company, fails WP:ORGIND and WP:CORPDEPTH
 * This book entitled "Toronto's Many Faces" has a "Places to Go" section which lists various Greek food places and contains a single sentence on the company containing its contact details and a comment about becoming onve of the largest food chains in Toronto with over 20 restaurants. Fails WP:CORPDEPTH.
 * This from Toronto Sun is clearly marked: This content is sponsored by Mr. Greek . Fails WP:RS as well as WP:ORGIND.
 * This from The Globe and Mail is a review of an entirely different Greek restaurant with a mention-in-passing of this company. Fails WP:CORPDEPTH.
 * This book entitled "Official Gazette of the United States Patent and Trademark Office" from June 2003 lists the registered copyrights for that period and has a single entry which reads "Mr. Greek Restaurants Inc., Toronto, Ontario M3C 3S2, Canada: 2,720,243. Pub. 7-30-2002. Int. CL. 42." Fails WP:CORPDEPTH
 * This from the Financial Post is an article on how the revenues at full-service restaurants in Canada is "stagnant" and discusses possible reasons. In an interview with a market research firm executive, they comment "At licensed fast-casual restaurant chains such as Mr. Greek, patrons typically dine inside, a practice that drives up the average dining cheque." A mention-in-passing, no in-depth information on the company, fails WP:CORPDEPTH.
 * This newsletter from the Hellenic Canadian Academic Association of Ontario mentions the company twice. Once, pointing out that the food and drinks at the First annual University Studies Orientation Day (USOD) were "generously sponsored" by the owner of the company. The second time the company is mentioned saying that lunch at the Second annual University Studies Orientation Day (USOD) was provided courtesy of the company. Fails WP:CORPDEPTH.
 * This from Greek City Times (which, in my opinion, fails as a WP:RS) is a review of a different Greek restaurant and includes this company in a list of 6 alternative Greek restaurants. Fails WP:CORPDEPTH
 * This from the Restaurant News magazine (page 14) is entirely based on an interview with George Raios, the company's founder, president and CEO and contains no "Independent Content". Fails WP:ORGIND.
 * This from CBC is about the attempts to rejuvinate the Burlington Mall and says that "Blaze Pizza, burger joint Five Guys and Mr. Greek are slated to move in as part of the new look." Fails WP:CORPDEPTH.
 * This information flyer for attendees of a SF convention in 2003 to provide information on visitors on available amenities states that there are several Greek food chain restaurants "with Mr Greek being the commonest". Fails WP:CORPDEPTH.
 * This from Canadian Immigrant magazine contains some interviews with various people who immigrated to Canada. One of the people bought a Mr. Greek Express franchise. Fails WP:CORPDEPTH and WP:ORGIND
 * This from The Star lists the top 10 most-ticketed places in Toronto. At number 10 is a place near a Mr. Greek restaurant. Fails WP:CORPDEPTH
 * This from The Star is a review of a newly opened Mr. Greek restaurant and all of the information on the company is provided by Mr. Raios (the founder, president and CEO of the company). Fails WP:CORPDEPTH and WP:ORGIND
 * Not a single reference meets the criteria for establishing notability. Most are mere mentions-in-passing and the others are entirely based on interviews with Mr. Raios. None are significant.  HighKing++ 18:02, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't know where you're from but here in Canada you can't find any Greek Canadian who doesn't know about Mr.Greek. The reputation precedes itself.  The TorontoSun article congratulating Mr.Greek on 22 consecutive years of readers choice awards is anything but the company sponsoring itself.  I know that here in Nova Scotia ppl come from around the world just to visit John's Lunch. why ?  Because it has won so many local 'choice awards' mostly from TheCoast publication.  Just because you use in my opinion doesn't necessarily make it so.  keep that in mind.Grmike (talk) 20:12, 28 April 2020 (UTC)grmike
 * I gave you high quality links, in-depth coverage, notability (awards, accolades in national greek publications), and even a connection to the 2010 winter Olympics torch. you're not going to find perfection in every link, but together the links paint a picture.  in this case it's keep.Grmike (talk) 20:20, 28 April 2020 (UTC)grmike
 * how did George Raios bc a torch bearer without being notable ? I guess without a reference we should just chalk it up as happenstance.Grmike (talk) 20:29, 28 April 2020 (UTC)grmike
 * a legit link for con fans visiting from SF calls Mr.Greek the commonest greek chain in Toronto. you throw the entire link out bc even though it acknowledges Mr.Greek's overwhelming presence at the time, it doesn't go on to talk about where they get their meat from, why they choose to mention it specifically and not any other establishment ? there's a saying that goes throwing the baby out with the bathwater.  Grmike (talk) 20:29, 28 April 2020 (UTC)grmike
 * This from Toronto Life the first greek restaurant to open in Kuwait then UAE is not the company promoting itself. World Domination - by Carolyn youdan - no connection to mr greek.  it is a Toronto first and Canadian first and greek first to have one of 'their own' making strides outside the country.  Carolyn youdan chose to title it "next up for Ontario's mr. greek : world domination" not mr. greek.Grmike (talk) 20:39, 28 April 2020 (UTC)grmike
 * This book entitled "Official Gazette of the United States Patent and Trademark Office" that link is not in-depth coverage but it does help to establish notability. The chain owns rights to the name Mr.Greek across north America.  that is significant and adds to the company's notoriety.Grmike (talk) 20:45, 28 April 2020 (UTC)grmike
 * This from Canadian Business Franchise and also this are interviews with entrepreneurs period. entrepreneurs who tried other things and had no success.  the article is 5 pages long and goes into depth about the ups and downs of running his own business.  The rigorous work ethic he acquired early on, the struggles implementing new procedures, the history behind the business, he was there since the franchise was 4 years old - it is 32 years old today.   the source easily passes WP:CORPDEPTH and may even pass WP:ORGIND.  there's a point at which life experience becomes independent of the things around it.Grmike (talk) 21:00, 28 April 2020 (UTC)grmike
 * You appear to not be familiar with your policies and guidelines and you are pushing your own opinion and synthesising "notability" requirements. Please read WP:ORGIND and WP:CORPDEPTH as a minimum since most of the references you list fail on one or both of these guidelines. No harm to look up WP:NOR either and especially WP:SYN.  HighKing++ 20:10, 29 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment - before casting your vote I suggest you familiarize yourself with List of Greek restaurants because if Mr. Greek isn't allowed on Wikipedia none of them are.Grmike (talk) 21:46, 28 April 2020 (UTC)grmike
 * Delete really seems to not be notably thanks to the great analysis of the totally lacking depth of coverage in sourcing above. If it was a notable company at least some of the sources wouldn't just be brief mentions. Also, the hand waving, canvassing etc etc by grmike is really not great either. --Adamant1 (talk) 06:31, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
 * comment - for the financial post, Canada's national newspaper, to use mr. greek as an example in an article discussing a $24 billion industry, without making mention of any other fast casual restaurant, is quite a feat.Grmike (talk) 11:35, 29 April 2020 (UTC)grmike
 * Re Financial Post, they are only mentioned once briefly in the whole article. "At licensed fast-casual restaurant chains such as Mr. Greek, patrons typically dine inside." It's pretty ludicrous your saying the article should be kept because an article mentions that people can dine inside their restaurant. Seriously. The Financial Post being a national newspaper doesn't have jack to do with it. It's not notability by association. Btw, it's also lame to put random words in bold. It doesn't help your argument any and it's pretty obnoxious. --Adamant1 (talk) 11:47, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
 * IMO it establishes notability. you're not always going to find indepth coverage of a low-importance subject in a national newspaper.  it was used as an example for a $24 billion growing sector of the industry.  stop being facecious.  there are other sources given, none are pristine sources but each has elements of what is required for notability.Grmike (talk) 11:54, 29 April 2020 (UTC)grmike
 * For 22 years in a row it was named best greek restaurant in Toronto, a city which has one of the world's 8 largest Greek diaspora communities.
 * I'm sorry you find the notability guidelines, which require in-depth coverage, facetious. We really have nothing more to say to each other. --Adamant1 (talk) 12:04, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm looking at the other Greek restaurants on wikipedia and thinking that this sets a dangerous precedent which will ultimately lead to the elimination of an entire category.Grmike (talk) 12:08, 29 April 2020 (UTC)grmike
 * Comment a 1995 newspaper article written by independent source Edwin Mercurio of the Original Bay News - Pickering slide 9 of 36 ..solid reputation of the restaurant chain which reaches across Canada and the Koras' family's own well-established name in the restaurant business. it's indepth, independent, and at the time (1995) in a notable source of information (pickering newspaper).Grmike. (talk) 12:22, 29 April 2020 (UTC)grmike
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 09:05, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Keep WP:MILL is just an essay not a policy and the nomination's other points are equally weak.  This is a substantial international restaurant chain, there are plenty of sources supporting this fact and so the topic is notable. Andrew🐉(talk) 22:44, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
 * "Plenty of sources" you say? Name one, any one, that meets the criteria for establishing notability.  HighKing++ 12:52, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   08:37, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep (already voted see above the line for details) - for the same reasons I gave above. The chain of restaurants have notability outside the local community and within the Greek community at large.  It's longstanding and well known nationally.  Active in the Greek community (founder is board member of the Hellenic Canadian association, make a wish foundation partnership).  The passing mention it receives in the Financial Post implies notability as only Mr.Greek is used to represent the $24 billion fast casual industry.  A 1995 feature article in the newspaper written by independent source Edwin Mercurio of the Original Bay News - Pickering slide 9 of 36 stated among other things ..solid reputation of the restaurant chain which reaches across Canada and the Koras' family's own well-established name in the restaurant business.  it's indepth, independent, and at the time (1995) a significant source (pickering newspaper), so the company was well established even 25 years ago.Grmike (talk) 17:53, 5 May 2020 (UTC)grmike
 * Mr.Greek is not "run of the mill" WP:MILL and that invalidates the nomination.Grmike (talk) 17:53, 5 May 2020 (UTC)grmike
 * comment - the title of this magazine article says it all World Domination
 * 22 consecutive years voted best restaurant chain in toronto and this is a chain of restaurants being awarded the prize.Grmike (talk) 18:15, 5 May 2020 (UTC)grmike
 * is an in-depth feature interview that does not involve the company owner.Grmike (talk) 18:15, 5 May 2020 (UTC)grmike
 * the franchise has locations in Kuwait, uae, Saskatchewan, Toronto, and other cities in south western Ontario. not local by any means.Grmike (talk) 18:15, 5 May 2020 (UTC)grmike


 * Comment I've struck your second !vote because you've already registered a !vote. It would be great if you could also learn how to format your responses and remove the bolding. Also, you don't need to attach your name after signing your posts. <b style="font-family: Courier; color: darkgreen;"> HighKing</b>++ 12:54, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * comment - relisted means even the comments previously made count ? I wasn't completely sure of this which is why I voted below the line.  fair enough.Grmike (talk) 19:40, 8 May 2020 (UTC)grmike


 * Keep: I think the Toronto Life article is a decent source. Only two paragraphs and it does contain two quotes from the company's press release, but it's obvious that it's an independent article because it criticizes the restaurant's food: "Canada's list of cultural exports gets even more random with this latest addition: passable souvlaki." I think that the nominator's claim that "the contents rely entirely on information provided by the company" implies that any article that includes a quote from the CEO can't be independent; any article about a company, no matter how in-depth and independent, will probably include a quote from someone at the company. The two articles that are based on those quotes (one negative, one positive) are both independent and specifically about the company, not passing mentions in an article about something else. — Toughpigs (talk) 14:26, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * , nope, that isn't what the nominator (me) means. When I say that a reference relies entirely on information provided by the company (or something similar), is it usually for the reason you've stated above - but let me tease out the precise reasons. What I mean is that there is no information contained in the article *about the company* that is in-depth and significant}. In this article, the opinion on whether the souvlaki is passable or not has no bearing on whether the *company* meets the criteria for notability. [[WP:ORGIND also comes into play as it states Too often a related party produces a narrative that is then copied, regurgitated, and published in whole or in part by independent parties (as exemplified by churnalism) - so even if a reference doesn't explicitly use quotates/interviews but bases its article on a PR announcement or other company announcement, it also fails the criteria for establishing notability. ORGIND also states that the references must contain "Independent Content" .. that is, content which contains original and independent opinion, analysis, investigation, and fact checking *about the company* that are clearly attributable to a source unaffiliated to the subject. The policies and guidelines are tough (for good reason) on companies/organizations and that is why an emphasis is placed specifically on references containing Independent Content. Can you take another look at your !vote? <b style="font-family: Courier; color: darkgreen;"> HighKing</b>++ 21:02, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I believe that the nominator is determined to nitpick every source out of existence. I also notice that the nominator has posted five times on this page in addition to the nomination itself, attempting to rebut everyone that disagrees. The essay WP:BLUDGEON describes this style of behavior: "Typically, the person replies to almost every !vote or comment, arguing against that particular person's point of view. The person attempts to pick apart each argument with the goal of getting each person to change their !vote." That is exactly what is happening here, including the request to change my !vote. The essay goes on to say, "When someone takes persistence to a level that overwhelms or intimidates others, or limits others' ability to interject their opinions without worrying about being verbally attacked, then this activity has risen to a level of abuse. This can be considered an act of bad faith as the purpose is to win at any cost." I encourage the nominator to take a step back, let other people look at the article and the sources, and make their own judgment. — Toughpigs (talk) 21:30, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
 * comment - I agree... with toughpigs.Grmike (talk) 23:58, 9 May 2020 (UTC)grmike
 * Delete - I generally agree with HighKing's analysis of the sources; most of them are not useful for establishing notability. I think the The Star article and the Toronto Life article come the closest and provide some useful information towards notability. I think this is a case of WP:TOOSOON; if this company went out of business tomorrow and completely disappeared, would they be notable in the sense of meriting an encyclopedia entry? I'm not convinced that the answer to that is yes. I could vaguely predict that I think the company will probably meet the notability guidelines given time, but the article shouldn't exist until that time when it does become notable. (This is a separate issue, but) even if the subject were presently notable, a lot of the coverage on the page is WP:UNDUE; if the page is kept, it needs some trimming. Ikjbagl (talk) 19:43, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
 * comment - how much time do you need ? if was the first greek restaurant chain in Canada, the first in Kuwait and has been in business for over thirty years.Grmike (talk) 23:03, 13 May 2020 (UTC)grmike
 * It's not about waiting for time to pass. It's about waiting for the subject to become more notable by receiving more coverage in reliable, independent secondary sources. WP:TOOSOON is not actually about waiting for time to pass; it's about waiting to see if the subject actually becomes notable or not because it is too difficult to tell at the present time whether that will happen. Ikjbagl (talk) 23:07, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:AMOUNT is of relevance here. A weed in the crack in the sidewalk in front of someone's house that receives a full page write up in Washington Post and Los Angeles Times is more notable than the largest and oldest organic chocolate pretzel factory in the world that receives only local coverage and a passing mention in national press. The standards for inclusion are also higher for organizations and companies compared to other random matters, because of promotionalism concerns. Graywalls (talk) 00:54, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete per the source analysis. Corp sets a higher bar.Spartaz Humbug! 19:51, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   14:29, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete Every bit of trivial mentions and insignificant coverage can be used to support a statement or augment the details within the article when there's proper references that meet all the criteria of WP:NCORP to establish the foundation to build on. You can round up all the beef trimmings but when you're expected to present a pound slab of high grade steak, the trimmings will never satisfy that. It's not being the first, being in business for a long time or the attributes expressed by an editor here that drives notability. It is the high level of notice and deep coverage by general interest, high circulation media coverage (see WP:AUD ) that is heavily weighed in notability determination. Graywalls (talk) 21:08, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
 * comment - the new template UPE added by graywalls - I am not affiliated with nor was paid by mr. greek to create or edit the article. I have been creating and editing articles on Wikipedia for 10 years.  The company is longstanding, that is why it is one of the first companies I contributed to.  the content that remains today is well sourced and referenced.Grmike (talk) 17:46, 22 May 2020 (UTC)grmike
 * reply that has to do with substantial edits by and the remaining promotional sectioning and tone to the article. Graywalls (talk) 21:17, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
 * that user hasn't contributed anything in more than nine years. since then the article has gone through a number of revamps meaning his contributions have largely been removed.  the promotional tone was already addressed years ago.  everything remaining is sourced and referenced.  I am the one who your accusation appears to be directed at.  the addition of the template was unjustified.  please maintain civility and Assume good faith. Grmike (talk) 21:22, 22 May 2020 (UTC)grmike


 * The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: #FF0000;">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.