Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mudiwa Hood


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. After extended time for discussion, recent participation is trending increasingly towards keeping the article as substantially improved over the course of the discussion. BD2412 T 07:28, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Mudiwa Hood

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Fancruft. Fails WP:NMUSICIAN, WP:BIO. This has been draftified before so my doing that again would be move warring.

References are both WP:BOMBARD and contain many primary sources. Fiddle Timtrent Faddle Talk to me 10:20, 4 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Just a point of order, despite what the person who moved the article out of draft space said, I did not put this up for AfC. That said, while there's a strong WP:STARTOVER argument to be made about this article, it seems Hood does meet WP:NMUSICIAN (criteria 1, multiple non-trivial articles in RS media; criteria 11, rotation by major station; and possibly criteria 7, for gospel hip hop in Zimbabwe). —Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 12:43, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
 * @Tcr25 I'm afraid there is no undoing the other editor's inexplicable move from Draft space without move warring, so, as nominator, I have taken the article as I found it. I think you have just cause for legitimate annoyance with the mover, except that they had every right to make they move despite it being a strange act. WP:TNT is required here if notability can be discerned and verified. Wikipedia is improved in any case whatever the outcome of this deletion discussion  Fiddle Timtrent  Faddle Talk to me 18:02, 4 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete - This article does not establish musical notability. It cites two musical awards, the Zimbabwe Achievers Awards and the Zim Hip Hop Awards, both of which are questionable.  The Zim Hip Hop Award article was created by one of the authors of this article and appears to be part of a developing walled garden.  The Zimbabwe Achievers Award was created by sockpuppets and is tagged as the work of conflict of interest editors.  This article does not otherwise establish musical notability.


 * This article has been moved from article space to draft space twice, by User:Celestina007 and User:Tcr25, and moved back into article space, so that User:Timtrent was right in nominating it for deletion rather than draftifying again.


 * This article has been reference-bombed with sources, most of which are visibly of little or no quality. No attempt has been made, and no attempt should be expected, to review the sources.  If the authors actually expect a real review of the sources, they should designate no less than three but no more than five sources as critical.  They should also declare any conflict of interest.


 * To follow up on the comment of Tcr25, this may be a case where the subject of the article actually satisfies notability but will never get a Wikipedia article as long as their flacks continue to try to game the system. This appears to be a case where the subject's flacks are their own worst enemy.  However, this article should be deleted.
 * Robert McClenon (talk) 17:25, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I think your point about flacks being the problem is the correct one, . There are enough RS sources that turn up in a quick search to show that Hood meets WP:GNG and at least C1 and C11 of WP:NMUSIC. I don't think we can legitimately say he doesn't meet notability requirements. That said, the article needs work, including improving and pruning sources. I've tried to start cleaning it up, mostly through copyediting and some source vetting, but there's only so much time in the day and this isn't an area of particular interest or expertise for me. —Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 17:37, 4 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 17:49, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Zimbabwe-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 17:49, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete — per they lack in-depth significant coverage in reliable sources independent of them. Celestina007 (talk) 17:59, 4 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep As indicated, i also think from a neutral point of view, this page can be worked on, i am from Zimbabwe and Mudiwa is a prominent figure no doubt, he is the most successful hip hop artist in the country in terms of awards and recognition.


 * Let me say something about the music industry here in Zimbabwe, there are 4 biggest awards which are (in no particular order) 1. National Arts Merit Awards (NAMA) by the National Arts Council, 2. Zimbabwe Music Awards (ZIMA), 3. Zimdancehall Awards (For dancehall artists in Zimbabwe) and Zim Hip Hop Awards (For Zimbabwean hip hop artists), these are the key and most significant gongs that every artist here wishes for. Which is why when nominations for these awards are released, every media house talks about these awards, there is media noise and when they happen there is serious coverage even on national TV, so they are no joke here in Zimbabwe. If you just make more research you will see what i mean.


 * The Zim Hip Hop Awards themselves are the biggest awards for hip hop in Zimbabwe, if you talk about recognizing Zimbabwean hip hop industry then Zim Hip Hop Awards are the key mention. Of cause some of the articles are primary sources which i think can be removed making the page clean than disregarding the whole subject. I have seen weaker articles here in Wikipedia of artists who are not even close to prominence e.g L kat, Tehn Diamond, Ninja Lipsy, Siyaya.


 * So yes they are primary sources with a pompous tone which can be annoying also which can be removed but i dont think it can take away the fact that the subject has significance in the music industry in Zimbabwe maybe consider that he has had several hit songs that dominated radio stations, has the most awards in the hip hop industry in Zimbabwe.Gwatakwata (talk) 11:58, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * @Gwatakwata Please see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. No precedent is ever set by any article for any other. If it were we would have a brutally fast descent into idiocracy. You arę welcome to send the articles you mention for AfD.
 * The English Language Wikipedia cannot have different rules for different nations. Fiddle Timtrent  Faddle Talk to me 14:50, 5 November 2021 (UTC)


 * I don't think there's a question of different standards for different nations. Looking at the sources, about half are associated with the awards or releases, not the bio. For the awards, the draft policy Awards and accolades requires independent sourcing, but Manual of Style/Film seems to have more leeway in accepting primary sources for award nominations and wins. For the discography section, it's not clear to me if MOS:DISCOGRAPHY requires sourcing for each release or if pointing to a primary source or press release to document the release is acceptable. The bulk of the rest of the sources are to Zimbabwean newspapers, some of which are questionably WP:RS for political stories, but should be reliable for things like entertainment and sports. Hood has been the focus of an academic paper and more-than-trivial-mention stories in multiple Zimbabwean newspapers. I'm not comfortable saying delete due to lack of notability because the preponderance of the evidence is that Hood meets both WP:GNG and WP:NMUSICIAN. I'll admit that I'm not a fan of WP:TNT as a way to handle things, but do think it would be reasonable to pare the article down to a stub. Having more in the English language Wikipedia about non-U.S./U.K./Australian subjects is positive for the project. —Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 16:17, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I've gone ahead and tried to trim/consolidate things and check sources. In a few cases, I deleted substandard sources and couldn't find a replacement so a "citation needed" was added. —Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 23:59, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26  (spin me / revolutions) 22:19, 15 November 2021 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗  plicit  03:23, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep per this statement: "[Mudiwa is] the most successful hip hop artist in the country in terms of awards and recognition." -- Gwatakwata. If this is true, then I think that statement would on its own meet the criteria for WP:NMUSICIAN and WP:BIO. Caleb Stanford (talk) 22:37, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * @Caleb Stanford Such a statement may only be taken as correct with an independent citation in a reliable source to show it. We may not take statements like that at face value Fiddle Timtrent  Faddle Talk to me 22:46, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Agreed, we need independent citations here, but I don't see anyone here contesting the claim itself. On the contrary, User:Tcr25 and others appear to be agreeing that the subject is notable and attributing the problem to other means. I suspect that, if this claim is true, there should be reliable citations that could be dug up to substantiate. Caleb Stanford (talk) 23:01, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest reviewing the current status of the page. I've done a bit of work trying to address the concerns about the article. The sources included are mostly Zimbabwean newspapers that may some some reliability issues when reporting on the government, but should suffice as WP:RS for reporting on entertainers. There's also, as I noted above, an academic article that looks at Hood and his music as an expression of prosperity gospel. These are all now in the article to establish WP:NMUSICIAN. If there are still concerns about WP:BOMBARD and primary sources, I believe things have been reduced to the point where the normal editing process can clean up things without deletion. —Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 23:53, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep Wikipedia probably doesn't have Zimbabwean reliable sources figured out, leading to a form of systematic WP:BIAS, that lead to this AfD. The young man meets GNG, and a profile piece in RollingStone shouldn't be necessary to establish it. LondonIP (talk) 19:12, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep: per . I support everything they said verbatim. –– FormalDude  Emojione 1F427.svg talk 01:57, 1 December 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.