Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Muhammad Saeed Khan


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Star  Mississippi  14:56, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Muhammad Saeed Khan

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Non-notable Islamic scholar, fails to meet WP:NBASIC and WP:GNG, had in headlines from very few media due to former PM's marriage, member of committee of a political party doesn't make him notable too. Can't find anything in RS regarding his scholarly and political services. M.Ashraf333 (talk) 06:29, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Academics and educators, Politicians, Religion, Islam,  and Pakistan. M.Ashraf333 (talk) 06:29, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: After a delete closure on 6 February, this article was taken to DRV which closed with the outcome of relist to allow for more consideration of Urdu-language sources. I am implementing this consensus but do not have a view on the merits of the article. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Stifle (talk) 09:35, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete: Agreed. 'Known for solemnizing a wedding' is not compelling notability material. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:55, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
 *  Week Keep I incline towards the subject being a border-line notable. A detailed article about his ideas related to the establishment of Darul Uloom Deoband have been discussed in Al-Bayyinat (June 2012 issue) in about 14 pages. There should be more about him in my opinion. ─ The Aafī   (talk)  07:45, 29 January 2023 (UTC) (Modified per my comments and findings below. ─  The Aafī   (talk)  03:05, 30 January 2023 (UTC))
 * Delete - per WP:BIO1E. Solemnizing wedding of a notable person doesn't confer notability. Insight 3 (talk) 08:19, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
 * @Insight 3: There is something beyond "solemnizing wedding" that I have mentioned above. ─ The Aafī   (talk)  11:21, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I will change my !vote once you show us some sources regarding subject's significant role other than the marriage. Insight 3 (talk) 15:25, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
 * @Insight 3, I've already added a detailed article that analyses his theory about the establishment of Darul Uloom Deoband. This is a significant, independent and reliable analysis about "his work" and must be counted towards his notability. I am not saying that the subject is "notable enough" due to this but I feel this is a "borderline" and this analytical article makes me believe there should be more details existing about him in Urdu resources when it comes to his works. His critique of Wahiduddin Khan and also of Deobandi movement as listed at his profile here appear things that could possible have gained attention. I am still trying to locate him on WorldCat in order to get more details - but whatever we have in Al-Bayyinat makes this a borderline case for me and definitely something beyond "solemnizing a marriage". Best, ─ The Aafī   (talk)  17:59, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
 * @TheAafi, His mention in Darul Uloom Deoband's magazine does not make him notable even when we combined it with the rest of the references. You can call it borderline when we have lots of coverage in primary, unreliable, secondary and in reliable sources, collectively we would call it borderline towards notability. M.Ashraf333 (talk) 18:26, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
 * A detailed analysis is different from a "simple mention". Given this detailed analysis of his ideas and views is a good indication about having more resources about him in Urdu - and I didn't say it makes him a clear-cut notable but it is still a borderline case for me. I'm looking for some as there is definitely stuff that is worth finding beyond the mere solemnisation of marriage. ─ The Aafī on Mobile   (talk)|undefined  18:40, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Well this article from BBC Urdu adds more to his involvement in 1995 Pakistani coup d'état attempt. I feel I have two best resources already established (the detailed analytical article in Al-Bayyinat journal of Jamia Uloom-ul-Islamia and the article in BBC Urdu) that discuss his involvement outside the "solemnizing marriage stuff" and I am now inclining to a full keep now. ─ The Aafī   (talk)  03:05, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment @TheAafi, Lets have a brief look on the refs now, ref 7 and 8 are reliable but isn't significant to the subject to establish notability. ref 6, 5, 1, and 4 are primary, unreliable, repeating and corelating each other (just for increasing the number of refs only), ref 2 and 3 are passing mentions and don't have any significant impact to the subject. The detailed analytical article in Al-Bayyinat journal (a 17 page journal) wasn't the analysis of Saeed, if you take a look, the author just introduced him and his view of point on first first 5 pages, the rest are the struggle journey of the institute. M.Ashraf333 (talk) 05:16, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't care what is in the article and what is not. Generally notability is established by "significant coverage in multiple, independent and reliable sources" and BBC Urdu article and Al-Bayyinat's at the least five pages according to you - both are significant and "multiple". Though there should be more but we have multiple and reliable sources that discuss his participation in 1995 Operation Khilafa of Pakistan and his point of views of establishment of Deoband. Both of these sources are "independent" and not primary. ─ The Aafī   (talk)  05:22, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
 * By the way, BBC Urdu is not a passing mention. It has a whole para about the subject and not just a single line. ─ The Aafī   (talk)  05:25, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
 * BBC 4 lines paragraph is nothing more than discussion about his participation in former PM's marriage ceremony, and passing mentions in reliable sources doesn't count towards notability, anyways more contributions in AfD would help us to develop consensus. M.Ashraf333 (talk) 05:54, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
 * This clearly means you have not read BBC report because it is definitely not about his participation in PM's marriage. It talks about his prime participation in the 1995 Pakistani coup d'état attempt. I've for now added everything that I could and I'm leaving these for community review. Best, ─ The Aafī   (talk)  06:10, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete - can't see enough in-depth coverage to show that they pass WP:GNG. Onel 5969  TT me 14:50, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
 * @Onel5969: I must ask, if you can been through the Urdu sources that I've included? ─ The Aafī   (talk)  16:26, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Randykitty (talk) 15:29, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment Now that this discussion has been relisted, I want to bring into attention the sources that were misinterpreted and not considered earlier, and make my case for the subject meeting WP:NBASIC#1. The nominator is adamant that the cleric has played no role besides solemnizing the marriage of PM Imran Khan. First of all, I'd bring into attention, the detailed descriptive and analytical coverage of the subject published in Bayyinaat, from pages 114 to 119, that's quite significant and meets WP:SIGCOV. This article also refers to some discourses by an Indian academic Waris Mazhari on the subject but unfortunately I've not been able to get hold of that. These discussions are on the subject's views about the establishment of Deoband seminary. Following this, we have the cleric's historical and widely accepted role in 1995 Pakistani coup d'état attempt demonstrated by several reliable resources such as Herald Dawn and BBC Urdu. The former source mentions, In fact, Mufti Saeed, a cleric arrested from Rawalpindi at the time, had not only been a regular at some of the garrison dars sessions but was also encouraged by the then commander of the 10-Corps Lieutenant General Malik and BBC Urdu makes clear discussion that (translation): It is said that Brigadier Mustansarbullah gave some of his papers to a man named Mufti Saeed and instructed them to be burnt and destroyed. Later, the military authorities recovered a copy of the speech from Mufti Saeed, which was to be delivered by Major General Zaheerul Islam Abbasi after taking over the power of the country. Mufti Saeed was the only person with these military officers who was aware of every issue. An article from Telegraph also happens to discuss the subject in few lines subject to his participation in the coup. That said, if everything is put together, this makes a good case for WP:NBASIC#1 in my opinion. Best, ─ The Aafī   (talk)  10:53, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep: Besides what has been already mentioned, the cleric is found to be in another controversy reported by Indian Express and The Hindu. Both are reliable. In conclusion of above discussion and these news sources, I believe this subject is notable and has significant coverage and should be kept. ❯❯❯  Chunky aka Al Kashmiri   (✍️) 06:26, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep: the subject has had significant coverage in Bayyinaat as User:TheAafi has found, and his involvement in the coup, put together, make him notable. I hope this helps. With regards, AnupamTalk 04:43, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Keep. Sources found by The Aafi and TheChunky indicate significant coverage. Thebiguglyalien  ( talk ) 22:07, 27 February 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.