Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Multi Theft Auto (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was Keep --ZsinjTalk 05:54, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Multi Theft Auto

 * – (View AfD) (View log)
 * (1st nomination)

Delete per WP:WEB. Only sources of notability are no good. Screenshot of FilePlanet front page is a trivial and inappropriate source. Youtube video is copyvio (someone recording G4 segment off TV with camcorder). Press coverage link is broken, and wouldn't be reliable if it was (being on official website, though it no longer seems to be a wiki). The Csports page seems to show that only 20 people are playing the game now. Drat (Talk) 08:06, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete, no non-trivial, independent coverage (WP:V). Recury 14:21, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep unless proven otherwise. If the press is out of sight, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Exactly what bearing does the fact that the video on YouTube is a copyvio have in this, anyway? That's not the point - the point is, the mod was discussed on G4TV! Interviewing the creators, no less! That's one non-trivial reference. (Though, in all honesty, one can debate whether or not this is trivial =) I remember seeing a bit about Multi Theft Auto in our local games TV show, though I'm not sure (the search function appears to be available for registered users only). Another non-trivial reference. I'm guessing here the rest of the alleged press isn't entirely trivial either. Also, I wonder what WP:WEB has to do with this anyway, this is not a website, it's a game mod. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 14:19, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
 * ...and since the nominator forgot to provide a link to the previous nomination, I added it. Appears to me there's plenty of press coverage based on that debate. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 14:24, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete It's only a mod. Not notable. ♣ Klptyzm  Chat wit me  §   Contributions ♣ 02:43, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Umm... a lot of mods are notable. Few make their way to the television, for example. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 22:01, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * So wait, is Counter Strike not notable? How about Team Fortress? Plus, it is the first (and I believe only) third-party unlicensed multiplayer modification to a singleplayer game in history. PC Gamer UK, which ran an article on it (I remember reading said article) is the bestselling magazine in the UK and therefore can be considered a highly respected source. Just because the availability of such sources is scarce, that's more a flaw with the policy of Wikipedia than because those sources never existed! Besides, having clicked 'random page' 3 times, I came up with 1-0-8, Nandi Award for Best Villain and the Than-Thre-Kull. Now really, are any of those less trivial for an encyclopedia? - Rushyo
 * Keep Very notable, as it is the original multiplayer mod for GTA. There is quite a lot of press coverage aswell. Pretender2j 14:50, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Name said press coverage and provide proof. ♣ Klptyzm  Chat wit me  §   Contributions ♣ 18:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Just a friendly suggestion but how about instead of trying to remove information from Wikipedia, why don't you try and improve the article so that it does meet your standards? Going around trying to remove articles because you 'don't think there good enough' really defeats the whole purpose of having Wikipedia in the first place. Pretender2j 14:46, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Please see the previous delete debate, the pointers above and even the article itself. If it was good enough of press coverage last time, I don't see why it should not be any longer valid. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 22:01, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Like I said, can you point me to said press coverage. ♣ Klptyzm  Chat wit' me  §   Contributions ♣ 03:45, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * All right, since you don't bother to read the pointers in the previous AfD debate... here's a list. Now what's wrong with these? These were obviously discussed in the earlier AfD debate and found to be decent enough. Please be specific. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 10:18, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Most/all of the print media links result in 404, and all but a few of the Internet publication articles are no more than a few paragraphs; some are nearly outweighed by the quote from the developer blog.--Drat (Talk) 10:41, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Uh... this is getting profoundly silly, so apologies in advance. You do realise what print media means? There's this "printing house" that "prints" things to "paper" and then "distributes" these copies via "postal mail" to "subscribers". There are even "libraries" that "order" these copies and make them available to you if you "walk" in the library and "ask" for them to be viewed. Quite a lot more complicated than the Web, but also quite a lot more effective in preserving the information. In short, if the site says the mod was mentioned in PC Gamer May 2003, you go to the library and see if it checks up by looking at a real copy of the real magazine. The fact that they have provided a scan of the article and it happens to be 404 right now has absolutely no bearing whatsoever. (You also say we should delete Socrates because the guy's printed works don't exist? Heck, that guy's own teachings are so 404 these days ...) --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 11:06, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't see any press coverage outside of game sites; seems like nothing more than a popular mod, that said popularity only generated by the popularity of its respective game. Not even G4 has even done anything big to cover it. Since you, apparently, can't find any real press coverage, i.e., any televised or printed press coverage, then I still vote delete.
 * (⇐ Outdenting...) So this is a "popular" mod now - I thought our general principle was to keep the mods whose popularity can be demonstrated! In case you haven't noticed, our notability guidelines do not talk about "anything big". The only big thing we've always needed were multiple non-trivial third-party sources. The G4 bit isn't much, but it's not exactly trivial in the sense we've usually defined it (generally entails something like "there's this mod", and a web link, and nothing else - interview with the creator, no matter how low of journalistic merit (generally speaking), is in my opinion light years ahead of that!) Have you checked all of the mentioned magazine articles and can honestly claim all of them qualify as trivial mentions? Even the alleged two- and three-page articles? The bottom line is: If you want this thing dead, say the sources don't check up, or say that they do and are entirely trivial. Don't claim they don't exist. Point the second: What makes "popularity only generated by the popularity of its respective game" a bad thing? (That description covers most of the mods and even commercial add-ons, incidentally; few mods or expansions cause role reversals of Counter-Strikean proportions.) "Nothing more than a popular mod" is a bad thing now? We could delete a whole lot of stuff with that attitude. (Let's just delete some article about a random president with the rationale "nothing more than a popular bigwig, I don't find any press coverage that says he's anything more than an instantly forgettable ribbon-cutter.") In closing, I'd actually appreciate a point-by-point rebuttal; I find your arguments a little bit too vague myself. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 10:35, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * First off, I don't feel that you can compare a mod to a video game to a president of the United States; a game and someone who has ran a country can't possibly compare to one another. The "respective game's popularity" is, in my opinion, it's only notable characteristic. Plus, some of those article links are broken, and, by some, I mean all; I don't know why or if it's temporary, but they are. Also, its reason of nomination brings up good points too: G4 bit is breaking copyright (though, maybe not likely, a better one can be found), and a screenshot, perhaps the only valid source, as far as availability, is unnecessary, and the "press" link is broken. Pertaining to my "popularity" statements, I said its only popularity was generated by it's respective game and nothing else; I never truly called it popular on its own; even then, I feel that another major part of that popularity is only generated by, not necessarily the mod, but its concept: Grand Theft Auto multiplayer, which has been "wishful thinking" among fans of the series for quite a while. Pertaining to the sources, once again, I don't seen any press outside of game sites and shows that specialize in games; how can we call it "press coverage" when only those that either have an affinity or specialize in games have covered it? Why not find some 3rd party sources outside of the gaming community? In the end, I still feel its nothing more than a popular mod, once again, that said popularity being "run off" from its respecitive game; I don't feel anyone would be "jonesing" for a Hitman: Blood Money multiplayer mod, which popularity is dwarfed by GTA's. ♣ Klptyzm  Chat wit' me  §   Contributions ♣ 16:04, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, point for point: 1) I wasn't comparing this mod and a PotUS (and specifically, I was just saying a "president", think globally =). I was making a comparison between allegedly popular game and an allegedly popular person. It was a decidedly exaggerated comparison to make a point: You can say this is absolutely inconsequential mod, and demand it deleted; I can say some random president of the US is a competely unknown person and demand it deleted. (I have absolutely no idea what most of the US presidents did. Heck, I have no idea what most of the Finnish presidents did, and we're only up to the 11th president right now. =) Sure, we're just both ignoring the big picture entirely, which is why neither of us would have anything valid to say in these cases. That was my point. 2) The game is popular. Apparently, the mod is popular. What, again, is the real sin here? I do get the idea what you're chasing here, but the logic really doesn't check up: There's many reasons a mod may become popular, and this just happens to be one way. One might say the Camera Hack for Neverwinter Nights was popular before the client had tunable camera, but that was a minor functionality point; this one has potential for a bigger article, don't you think? We'll need to think of the scope; what would you say about merging, if this really is even minorly popular mod? Abundance of sources clearly says that this can be covered in an article. 3) I already said this above: these are print magazine references. The fact that scans of them aren't available any more is irrelevant; such is the case for quite a lot of articles. Our sourcing policy doesn't require online sources. 4) Like I said, the fact that the video-as-posted-on-Youtube is breaking on copyright is completely inconsequential. You don't rely on YouTube to verify a source anyway. The source isn't YouTube, it's G4TV. Go to the G4TV web page, find the contact information, and politely ask them "hey, you showed a segment on Multi Theft Auto with an interview of the author, is this correct?" Or grab a telephone. That's source checking. 5) Please educate a dumb foreigner: is "PC Gamer" nowadays a "game (web)site"? The PC Gamer article says it's a magazine; has it turned into a website before May 2003, and no one has bothered to update the Wikipedia article since then? It still says it's a magazine. (I assume this is a rhetoric question, but if this really is the case, the article clearly needs updating.) Same with GamePro, and other magazines listed in the list. 6) What, exactly, is the problem with "shows" that focus in gaming? Are you discrediting television as a journalistic medium? (hint: another question exaggerated for rhetoric effect) 7) Now you're demanding something a little bit too much: Mainstream media (that is, general news media, not mainstream videogame media such as nationally or internationally distributed gaming magazines) rarely touches game mods at all, and whatever coverage they have of gaming at all is very shallow. If we started demanding sources from "outside gaming community" (whatever that means again), we'd be on a very shaky ground. Should we also get sources to theoretical physics or microbiology articles from "outside the scientific community"? --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 18:16, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

* Delete per my above response to "press coverage." ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit' me  §   Contributions ♣ 00:43, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment. You've already voted.--Drat (Talk) 00:54, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah I did. ♣ Klptyzm  Chat wit' me  §   Contributions ♣ 15:28, 2 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep per comments made above - Rushyo
 * Keep I'll be a good sport and change my vote; I'll admit, I'm not fully acquainted to Wikipedia and all of its procedures, but, due to recent statements and evidence, I've changed my vote, although the article still should be overhauled somewhat, and the other, more credible sources actually put up. ♣ <b style="color:blue;">Klptyzm</b>  Chat wit' me  §   Contributions ♣ 05:08, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Change vote to keep, per above, seconding that the sources verified and cited. Not withdrawing nomination, as the process may as well run its course.--Drat (Talk) 05:16, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.