Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Murad Abu Murad


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__. There is clear consensus here that a standalone page is not viable. A merger has been proposed, but doesn't have consensus, and two targets have been suggested, one of which doesn't exist at the moment. So I'm going to delete this for now, in the understanding that if a list article is created, or consensus is reached to expand a different page with this information, we can redirect this title: also, that I will gladly provide a draftspace copy for anyone who wants to develop this toward a merger. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:10, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Murad Abu Murad

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

There is no WP:SIGCOV of this individual in multiple sources that is required under the GNG guideline. VR talk 02:56, 15 December 2023 (UTC) Keep I've added more news sources, there's significant coverage stating his involvement in the October attacks, as well as numerous articles noting his death. Thief-River-Faller (talk) 14:52, 15 December 2023 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 04:25, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. VR talk 02:56, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Military and Palestine.  WC  Quidditch   ☎   ✎  03:20, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * You added this Jerusalem Post article that supposedly gives him WP:SIGCOV. All this article says about Abu Murad is "IDF personnel eliminated Murad Abu Murad, the head of Hamas's Air Force, in Gaza City on Friday, Hebrew media reported. Murad largely took part in directing terrorists in the murderous attack last Saturday. Murad's death came as the IDF attacked Hamas's operational headquarters in the region." That's it. Nothing more. How's that SIGCOV?VR talk 05:33, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * to me that sounds somewhat notable, at least worth merging into something or having as a list. Irtapil (talk) 14:39, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 06:51, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete: Sources are about the event, and contain very little information beyond this, simply stating they were involved in the terrorist attack/org. The event itself obviously happened, there are sources for the event, but again they contain very little information and I don't think they amount to WP:SIGCOV.
 * Ping me if someone makes a strong case with sources for converting this into an event article. I strongly considered this, it would provide a good redirect target for the current title. The exact name for the event should be determined by reliable sources. My issue here is finding WP:SIGCOV addressing the subject (the event) directly and indepth, just because it happened doesn't make it notable. No objection to a consensus redirect.  // Timothy :: talk  07:37, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I think we should start a list article, there are a lot of cases like this, where there's a notable amount of news coverage, but not enough information to be a whole page (see below). Start with a big list that includes everything, then split off if it gets too big. But, journalists already have their own page and I'm not sure how to frame it for that?
 * Irtapil (talk) 18:03, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Delete as a BIO1E. Also little known about him because lacking SIGCOV. Not mentioned anywhere else so should not be redirected. Not ruling out a merge, yet it should be noted that organically nobody deemed Abu Murad important enough to be included in a more comprehensive article and there are many of these. So don't force it. gidonb (talk) 04:51, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Final relist to see if there is more support for a Merge or if a straight Delete is preferable. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 05:07, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
 *  Merge and redirect to Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades as an WP:ATD. Readers might be searching for the name, and there is at least potentially some information we could give them (meaning there is enough sources for expanding the target with content about this subject, even if no one has done so yet). Seems like a typical situation where we'd have a redirect. Levivich (talk) 19:09, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Abu Murad is not mentioned at the target so not a valid option. gidonb (talk) 14:08, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Who cares, easily fixed. Levivich (talk) 14:51, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Sure but that fix isn't a redirect. 15:38, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Ok I changed my vote from "redirect" to "merge and redirect." Easy. Levivich (talk) 15:42, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Much better! gidonb (talk) 16:24, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
 * the target? Irtapil (talk) 18:04, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
 * It's right there! Including the section at target! gidonb (talk) 19:08, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Delete of course. A stub with no potential to expansion, no notability. Nothing to merge there. Hamas has thousands of killed members and we have a NOTAMEMORIAL to not list them all. Only the ones who were notable. With regards, Oleg Y.  (talk) 17:30, 6 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Not all, but this guy got news coverage in at least 3 countries, Israel, India, and Germany.
 * Actually, that combination makes thus article weird, most of this topic have too many USA and UK sources, but this page has none? Possibly there is a another article about him with a different spelling of his name?
 * Irtapil (talk) 14:30, 7 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Also  I'm tentatively skeptical of "Hamas has thousands of killed members". As far as I can tell, that figure includes ALL males over 15 years old who've been killed in Gaza? when the number of militants was previously estimated as just 40,000 out of the half million men in Gaza, and the war has kilted thousands of adult female civilians.
 * The only way I see that adding up is if nearly all of the missing are dead combatants that Hamas are refusing to report, which is fairly plausible (under reporting combatant casualties is very common, and would be a lot easier than the over reporting of civilians they keep being accused of), but that's pure speculation. So currently I'm filing "thousands of dead Hamas militants" as "one side said", the same category as the number of Israeli tanks Al-Qassam claim to have destroyed?
 * But there is a slight bias towards adult males in the deaths so it could be one or two thousand, just not quite as many thousand as the IDF claim.
 * Irtapil (talk) 14:30, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I hear you however an individual who receives only temporary news coverage doesn't meet the BIO1E guidelines. For instance, not every victim of the October 7 mass murder committed by Hamas has a dedicated article, despite multiple news coverages for each. I have done research when I wrote over 100 articles on this topic in ruwiki (including all major October 7 events such as all but one here, articles on Hamas members, settlements, victims and etc.). To warrant an article, sustained interest over a longer period and potential analytics, along with adherence to notability criteria is necessary.
 * I'm not referring to all males over 15 and 40K, but specifically focusing on the 8K killed Hamas members. With regards, Oleg Y.  (talk) 14:49, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @Oleg Yunakov
 * I know exactly what your are referring to. I was saying I don't believe the "one side says" unless there's some other evidence (you seem to have my even read to the end of the headline, "says IDF spokesman"?) There is no independent source verifying tower 8,000 dead people exist, unless you count almost every dead man and dead teenage boy in Gaza. So,
 * The IDF just made up the number
 * The IDF are counting dead civilians as militants (seems most likely, the USA has often counted every adult male as a combatants, "military aged males", people write whole PhD theses on that)
 * The Hamas government in Gaza are hiding thousands of the deaths of combatants (quite common, Ukraine and Russia are both hiding the numbers)
 * 18:33, 7 January 2024 (UTC) Irtapil (talk) 18:33, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I am not disagreeing with you and I do not think that anyone would disagree that those numbers can only be used with an attribution. But I am missing the point regarding how such number is related to the notability of Murad Abu Murad? IMHO it's unrelated. Regarding the potential list of little stubs it has to comply with PEOPLELIST. If the guy has another name you are welcome to find it and prove notability. Otherwise we can say that anyone can have other name with potential notability. With regards, Oleg Y.  (talk) 19:51, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @Oleg Yunakov And as I was saying below, I thin best solution is to make a list page complying all these little stubs. But, "Abu" is very common in militant pseudonyms, e.g. the spokesmen, so this guy possibly has another name…
 * 18:40, 7 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Second choice, Keep or merge with an existing page, but I would prefer…
 * Start a list page - There will probably be a lot of these little articles?
 * To begin with I would include all factions and Hezbollah (not just Hamas). We can split it if it gets too long. Some entries can refer to a main page, but most probably won't. But what do we call it? And should we include notabe civilians?
 * 📝 "List of Palestinian and allied militants killed in the 2023-2024 Israel-Hamas war"
 * But that is too long?
 * 📝 "Palestinian and allied militants killed in the 2023-2024 war"
 * Which war is probably implied
 * 📝 "Alleged militants killed in the 2023-2024 Israel-Hamas war"
 * Some (e.g. Ali Bazi) seem to be officially unconfirmed and recently dead people probably warrant similar caution to WP:BLP? Possibly we could just make it comprehensive?
 * 📝 "List of notable deaths in the 2023-2024 war"
 * That would include journalists and any other civilians whose deaths got substantial news coverage?
 * But the 1,139 deaths on the Israeli side at the beginning probably belong on a different list, the level of detail about them could easily fill an entire wiki page?
 * 📝 "Notable non-Israeli casualties in the 2023-2024 war"
 * But I have never seen "notable" in an article title before, is there a better way to say that?
 * The 3 hostages who got shot seem like they belong in that list, but "kilted by Israel" is obviously going to cause problems. Possibly it could just be 8 October onwards? But the IDF soldiers seem like they belong elsewhere?
 * Irtapil (talk) 13:41, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I like the idea of either having a list of casualties for the war in general, or split lists for Israeli/Palestinian sides, although the list of 'Notable' people may not be long enough for split articles. Thief-River-Faller (talk) 19:05, 11 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Delete, WP:BIO1E applies. Probably worth making a list page. Stifle (talk) 09:20, 12 January 2024 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.