Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Murder of Ashley Ann Olsen


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. While there's assertions that the coverage of this story meets the notability guidelines, few editors have endorsed that position despite one editor making it continually. On the other hand, despite some of the delete votes being weak, there seems to be wide agreement that this is only routine coverage given the nature of the crime. Lankiveil (speak to me) 13:03, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Murder of Ashley Ann Olsen

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

WP:NOTNEWS. Clearly a tragic event but article evidently created due to status of alleged offender as an "illegal immigrant". PROD removed by creator with rationale of "the second time in a single week that I open the New York Times to find a story about a murder in Italy, I figure it's probably notable" - clearly confusing routine news coverage with lasting notability. Unfortunately, globally, many people are murdered each and every day. No evidence this stands out from any other crime AusLondonder (talk) 03:36, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
 * The assertion that the coverage is "routine" is a falsehood. btw, the New York Times does not devote 2 stories even to murders that take place in New York, and Olsen was not a New Yorker. American and British papers do not give this kind of coverage to "routine" murders in Italy.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:06, 8 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:50, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions.  /wiae   /tlk  04:19, 8 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete A sad story but a routine murder does not become notable simply by attracting routine press attention, or because the victim is an American woman in Italy. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  04:44, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
 * It's an international news story, not a "routine story".E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:11, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Italy-related deletion discussions. AusLondonder (talk) 04:53, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. AusLondonder (talk) 04:54, 8 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete Local news story with international cable news overhype due to where the victim was from; otherwise a thin article overall with no hope of expansion.  Nate  • ( chatter ) 04:58, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
 * The "hype" - I would call it intense national and international coverage - is not because of "where the victim was from". Please, PLEASE, pleeze everybody at least run a search of some sort before making silly asertions.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:11, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
 * As someone who follows the media as a hobby, it is overhype, and the 'intense' coverage is certainly almost never of the neutral observer type, but always bends to tabloid. I stand by my rationale.  Nate  • ( chatter ) 04:56, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 08:44, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 08:44, 8 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete So far fails notability guidelines. Zerotalk 12:01, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete per NOTMEMORIAL, NOTNEWS, CRIME. Spirit Ethanol (talk) 13:23, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Change to neutral Some aspects such as the unusual execution of crime with respect to event location and social consequences not fully assessed for an informed vote. Spirit Ethanol (talk) 17:07, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I respect your opinion but would you mind telling me what was "unusual" about this crime and what were the "social consequences" that took place? Have I missed something? AusLondonder (talk) 17:11, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Crime took place in Italy where homicide rate is extremely low and method of killing is rather strange. Further research required for a more informed vote. Spirit Ethanol (talk) 17:24, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
 * 529 homicides in one year which equates to 1.4 homicides a day. There have been around 46 days this year. That means in Italy this year 64 homicides have already taken place. In the case, there should be 64 articles about murders in Italy. Let's be honest - the only reason this article was created is because suspect is an "illegal immigrant" and it suits the agenda of certain editors, the right-wing press and Faux News AusLondonder (talk) 17:40, 15 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep because the suspect, Cheik Diaw, is under arrest and will be tried, and because the case has generated substantial international coverage, not to mention national coverage, , ,  as per WP:RAPID it would be reasonable to keep this article  for now and revisit in a few months to see how much attention the case has drawn.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:55, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
 * — Note to closing admin: E.M.Gregory (talk • contribs) is the creator of the page that is the subject of this AfD.
 * Also coverage in the Italian national-circulation papers such as La Republica has been far from routine .  Presumably because crimes allegedly committed by migrants are among the most notable and controversial topics in Europe.E.M.Gregory (talk)
 * Note that firenze.repubblica.it is the florentine local-circulation edition of the Italian national-circulation newspaper La Repubblica (not La Republica); La Nazione is a florentine newpaper, too; and Il Giornale is a xenophobic newspaper and not a reliable source. Nykterinos (talk) 00:58, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment Please don't bring rash xenophobia into this discussion. This is pretty much a local murder case with the usual 'an American died' overamplification that cable news and the network morning show 7:30 murder blocks seem to have a fixation on (along with the inane connection to a Knox investigator). The La Republica coverage also seems to be routine, the same way many murder cases with only minor interest sometimes get a check-in by a national paper.  Nate  • ( chatter ) 04:54, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Please WP:AGF, the comparison to the Murder of Meredith Kercher was not my own, it was made by The Daily Telegraph, which reads: "The arrest of an immigrant for the high-profile murder, which evoked comparisons with the killing of British student Meredith Kercher in Perugia in 2007." here: .E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:21, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * 20 articles in La Republica is not a "check by".E.M.Gregory (talk) 13:37, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Totally agree with that, User:Mrschimpf. This is a classic case of Missing white woman syndrome, WP:GEOBIAS and xenophobic anti-immigrant WP:POVPUSHING. AusLondonder (talk) 05:22, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
 * While your opinions are interesting, it is wide, deep, ongoing coverage that establishes notability.E.M.Gregory (talk) 13:37, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Please find more than Italian-language sources. As an English entity we require when possible that sources are English-language showing wide international coverage, not just Italian sources.  Nate  • ( chatter ) 18:21, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
 * The article is sourced to 2 separate article in the New York Times, to The Guardian, The Daily Telegraph and The Daily Beast. It was covered in Hurriyet,  [Stern (magazine)|Stern]] tagged their article "In Depth"  it got the kind of worldwide coverage that marks a news event as notable, loook here:  and here: . Coverage in Florida, Florence and Senegal is local - everything else is the kind of national and international coverage that passes WP:GNG, even before a trial has taken place.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:51, 9 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Re: "xenophobic anti-immigrant" and re: WP:POVPUSHING. I have no doubt that "xenophobic anti-immigrant" sentiment have a great deal to do with the massive coverage this murder has received.  Nor do I doubt that teh enourmous amount of cobarage involves Missing white woman syndrome which WP defines as : "a phrase used by social scientists and media commentators to describe the extensive media coverage, especially in television, of missing person cases involving young, white, upper middle class women or girls.... the media's undue focus on upper-middle-class white women who disappear," albeit, this one was murdered, not missing.  That is precisely my point.  We weigh articles on crime according to the amount of coverage in RS that they generate.  Arguing as  editors above do that, it should be deleted because this "'intense' coverage" smacks of "rash xenophobia," and " xenophobic anti-immigrant WP:POVPUSHING" is,in fact, precisely the kind of WP:POVPUSHING that I have tried to avoid in wording the article.  To whitewash Wikipedia by cleansing it of the reality of the massive media and political focus on crimes that prosecutors and the press suspect of being committed by migrants (as Nom has attempted the last few days to do here: Rafik Yousef, here: 2016 Sweden asylum center stabbing, Category:Terror attacks committed by paroled Islamic Terrorists, Articles for deletion/2015 New Year's attack plots and elsewhere  is WP:POVPUSHING  and a violation of WP:NOTCENSORED.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:17, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
 * User:E.M.Gregory - aren't you, as the creator of all those mentioned articles and categories, the one who is engaged in WP:POVPUSHING? AusLondonder (talk) 02:47, 10 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Very Strong Keep A notable event molding public opinion in Europe. Public opinion will decide the fate of 2.000.000 asylum seekers in Europe and of 3.500.000 in Turkey. Stefanomione (talk) 00:45, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment' Let's be sane and realistic here; a generic murder case in Florence is not going to decide that 6 million people have to go home to a terrible situation because one bad apple killed somebody. Please stop amplifying this nomination beyond the reality of what we're talking about.  Nate  • ( chatter ) 00:58, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment on comment' - The choice will be between a permanent stay or going home after the war/s ... A week ago, Angela Merkel made a U-turn on this topic, monitoring closely the fickleness of public opinion ... That is why this article describes a notable, influential fact. Stefanomione (talk) 02:13, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Actually, this case has absolutely nothing to do with the refugee crisis. The alleged offender did not come from an affected nation or arrive during the timeframe. AusLondonder (talk) 02:48, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Technically correct, but in terms of political mood and opinion, these things get conflated.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:01, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Fact check AusLondoner, where are you getting your facts? 'm seeing reputable newspapers state that Cheik Diaw arrived illegally a few months ago, which certainly makes him part of the migrant crises.  Please bring sources or apologize to User:Stefanomione.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:04, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Here are sources on suspect's illegal arrival in Italy during the 2015 refugee crises:, , The Daily Telegraph says: "The arrest of an immigrant for the high-profile murder, which evoked comparisons with the killing of British student Meredith Kercher in Perugia in 2007, is likely to fuel the debate in Europe over crime and immigration, particularly in the wake of the mass sexual assaults in Cologne and other cities on New Year’s Eve."   AusLondoner, please check facts before making assertions.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:17, 10 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Parsley Man (talk) 06:30, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * WP:HEY I have significantly expanded and sourced the article, entirely in English as my Italian is slow - and the editors weighing in here skew Anglophone.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:29, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * But it's still not a notable topic. DexDor(talk) 21:57, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Doesn't really fix the notability of the topic, though... Parsley Man (talk) 02:06, 11 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. DexDor(talk) 21:57, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Here: is the CNN coverage, to date. Including today's article.E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:29, 10 February 2016 (UTC)


 * note that coverage of this crime goes far beyond the kind of "routine" coverage described in WP:NOTNEWS, detailed under WP:EVENT section WP:ROUTINE, but often misinterpreted. Also remember to take WP:RAPID into account, and not rush to delete an event currently receiving coverage that is WP:INDEPTH and WP:DIVERSE.E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:39, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * We get it, you don't want the article to be deleted. Please stop with the WP:POVPUSHING now. Parsley Man (talk) 02:06, 11 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete. It fails WP:LASTING and WP:CONTINUEDCOVERAGE. Even in Italy, where xenophobic parties are quick to exploit such cases, it generated little controversy, much less than the Palagonia double homicide. WP:RAPID recommends waiting "for a few days" "to allow time for a clearer picture of the notability of the event to emerge". After a month, the case has not "acted as a precedent or catalyst for something else" and has disappeared from national news coverage. Nykterinos (talk) 00:50, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
 * In fact, it was in yesterday's international headlines. Added to article.  Also, thank you for reminding me of Articles for deletion/Palagonia double homicide, where some editors arguing for deletion on the same grounds they offer here, basically WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT.E.M.Gregory (talk) 02:09, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
 * It was in yesterday’s news because… the victim’s family protested against poor news coverage. Nice paradox. The fact that, unlike this case, the Palagonia homicide generated controversy in Italy doesn’t mean that it warrants an article on Wikipedia: actually, it fails WP:LASTING and WP:CONTINUEDCOVERAGE, too. Ironically, none of these articles could ever be created on it.wiki without being deleted. Nykterinos (talk) 10:41, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
 * And, Nykterinos, please refrain from deleting valid sources and information; always bad form, but especially so during an active AFD.E.M.Gregory (talk) 02:09, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Your use of the sources is WP:SYNTH at best. None of the sources you cited claims what you make them claim. As the case lacks notability, you’re trying to invent a non-existent relation to the European migrant crisis or a non-existent “wide discussion” on it. Nykterinos (talk) 10:41, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
 * More could be added to source what you consider SYNTH, but I have lengthened the section with quotes from the New York Times and The Telegraph (Note) that the section Nykterinos disputes was always supported by sources. Please familiarize yourself with topic and sourcing before making inaccurate assertions.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:38, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Note that this is the 2nd time an editor arguing vehemently for deletion has argued for deletion by making false assertions, And that the rest of the editors argue on the basis of NOTNEWS.   I understand the political vehemence.  But the coverage of this crime has been enormous.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:41, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Please learn the difference between "enormous" and "notable". Simply spamming us with links (which often repeat the same wire copy or the wording is reconfigured to meet the source's journalistic style, which is very obvious between the Guardian and Telegraph stories) does not make a story more enormous, along with generic 'scare quotes' where the writer quotes generalities like '(they) were a (good/bad) person'. And Senegal is far from the epicenter of the crisis, in western Africa.  Nate  • ( chatter ) 14:38, 11 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. I came here because there was a link from the Murder of Meredith Kercher. The cases are not comparable yet; this article appears to be a tragic but commonplace murder with run-of-the-mill detective work. MoMK had prosecution of American roommate and her boyfriend for killing British roommate in Italy, dubious evidence, conflicting experts, and substantial polarization of the community. So wait until this story shows WP:N. Glrx (talk) 02:22, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete, the coverage basically lasted the few hours/days after the murder and stopped in a week or less. Fails WP:EVENT, at least for now. Cavarrone 21:43, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Very Strong Keep: The political fallout alone from this case is quite significant, especially given it's timing in relation to other ongoing events throughout Europe. Ceannlann gorm (talk) 19:37, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
 * There's nothing in the article about political fallout (unless you count a newspaper opinion that it "is likely to fuel the debate" which is pretty weak). DexDor(talk) 20:36, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Almost every source in the article supports User:Ceannlann gorm's assertion of significant impact on the political conversation in Europe.E.M.Gregory (talk) 00:13, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
 * - I haven't see much debate about it in the House of Commons. In fact, Hansard say it hasn't been mentioned even once. What about the European Parliament? What "significant impact on the political conversation in Europe" are you referring to? AusLondonder (talk) 14:43, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
 * The one that takes place in the court of public opinion, there has been massive press coverage.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:50, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
 * - How do we credibly measure what is going on in the so-called "court of public opinion"? Also, what do you believe constitutues "massive press coverage"? A dog-whistling opinion article in an openly racist and borderline fascist tabloid newspaper? AusLondonder (talk) 17:14, 15 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment 529 homicides in one year in Italy which equates to 1.4 homicides a day. There have been around 46 days this year. That means in Italy this year 64 homicides have already taken place. In the case, there should be 64 articles about murders in Italy. Let's be honest - the only reason this article was created is because suspect is an "illegal immigrant" and it suits the agenda of certain editors, the right-wing press and Faux News AusLondonder (talk) 17:40, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Um, I'm talking about coverage in papers like Irish Independent here: CNN:, CBS:, The Guardian :.E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:54, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I'll take the first example, the Irish Independent. Two mentions from the Press Association, one from Reuters. No evidence they appeared in print. AusLondonder (talk) 18:12, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Indeed, that's why papers subscribe to Reuters. Here is the Reuters coverage: .  But my point that these are not "facist tabloids".  Although as regards notability, tabloid coverage does count.  Even tabloids whose politics you dislike.  Now, please put down you WP:BLUDGEON and let other editors take a look and do their own assessments.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:33, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
 * It's ironic that you accuse other editors of WP:BLUDGEON, when half of the comments on this talk page are yours. The sources you continue citing only prove that international (and national) news coverage stopped a few days after the event: no WP:CONTINUEDCOVERAGE, no WP:LASTING effect. Despite what the Telegraph thought was "likely" one month ago, this case hasn't fueled any debate in Italy, let alone in Europe. Nykterinos (talk) 20:58, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Nykterinos, Please cease to assert untruths. The murder has fueled debate and coverage in national dailies in Italy.  Corriere della Sera,  recent stories:  Esplora il significato del termine: Firenze, l’omicidio Ashley: le foto della scena del crimine, 29 January, Ashley, lo sfogo della famiglia «Quante falsità su di lei», 10 February, Oltre la violenza per non dimenticare volti e storie, 14 February, search results . Il Giornale search:, And the google translate oversio of the latest details of the investigation form La Republica, here: . The case has had reliable, non-routine, in-depth coverage, and  WP:RAPID exists for cases like this, in which national and international coverage is ongoing.E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:29, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Indeed, E.M.Gregory often has an astounding lack of self-awareness. AusLondonder (talk) 22:30, 15 February 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.