Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Muscovite–Ukrainian War (1658–1659)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__. Doczilla Ohhhhhh, no! 06:18, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Muscovite–Ukrainian War (1658–1659)

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

No such war in literature, it was part of the Russo-Polish War (1654–1667). This article is OR Marcelus (talk) 20:11, 20 April 2024 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 23:08, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: History, Poland, Russia,  and Ukraine. Marcelus (talk) 20:11, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 21:21, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment. Seems to be mentioned here but the odds are this is not reliable and copied from Wikipedia. Possibly mentioned under other names in English, Polish, Ukrainian, Russian. Polish name is not mentioned, can anyone report on the queries in Russian and Ukrainian and analyze sources used in the respective articles on ru and uk wikis, if any (sources; articles exist)? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 00:08, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep Appears notable. Sources exist e.g. this and this. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  20:03, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep, possibly re-title. We have an article on The Ruin (Ukrainian history). This would be a sub-article. I do personally find the use of "Muscovy" and "Ukraine" in this context a tad jarring. We seem to be very inconsistent in our terminology for early modern East Slavic states. There is an open access anthology on the battle of Konotop (1659) wherein Serhii Plokhy uses "Muscovite-Cossack war". Srnec (talk) 20:25, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment. Google Scholar returns 2 results for "Muscovite-Ukrainian War" and 9 results for "Ukrainian-Muscovite War", of which only 1 refers to 1658. Clearly a new title is needed in this case and this seems to fall under the Ruin and Russo-Polish War articles (which are sorely lacking details for this period). Even the Ukrainian-language sources cited use "Russian-Ukrainian war" and this looks like to have been the original title on the Ukrainian Wikipedia before it was moved. In my opinion this looks like revisionist history referring to an uprising led by Ivan Vyhovsky (a pro-Polish hetman). For example this source says: "Khmel'nitskii died in 1657, and Poland and the new Cossack leader, Vygovskii, now accepted Polish lordship over Ukraine. Vygovskii joined Poland in the resumption of war with Russia in October 1658... But in Ukraine, Cossacks of the Left Bank... rebelled against Vygovskii's pro-Polish alliance... Vygovskii fled to Poland, and Trubetskoi marched to Pereiaslavl', where he persuaded the Left Bank Cossacks to accept him as hetman in October 1659" (p. 214). I do not think it is suited for a spin-off article; I would say merge instead but most the article is unsourced. Mellk (talk) 12:04, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * In a nutshell: in 1658 Vyhovsky again recognized the Cossacks' dependence on Poland; the Union of Hadziach was signed. This resumed Polish-Russian fighting interrupted earlier by a truce; Russia invaded Ukraine seeking to subjugate Vyhovsky, having some Cossacks (including Sich) behind it.
 * In May, the PLC again concluded a truce with Russia, but the Sejm approved the Hadziach Union, and Vyhovsky received small reinforcements from the crown army. Thus came the Battle of Konotop, which Vyhovsky won. In August, however, a Cossack uprising broke out against Vyhovsky, who was overthrown and the new Hetman Yurko Khmelnytsky subordinated himself to Moscow, supported by a large part of the Cossacks. The war continued.
 * As you can see, there is no war between “Ukraine” and “Moscow”, but there is an internal rivalry between the divided Cossacks, which take place in the context of the Polish-Russian war. Marcelus (talk) 14:01, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I would also add that Google Scholar returns almost no results for "Russian-Ukrainian war" or "Russo-Ukrainian war" referring to 1658/1659 (if we limit the years to before the current war then almost all results refer to the Russian Civil War and a hypothetical war excluding post-2014 publications referring to the current war but slipped through). Same goes for "Muscovite-Cossack war" etc. I see a few results for Ukrainian-language sources but there needs to be a deeper look to see which ones are reliable. At the moment I see very little that supports the idea of a separate war. For example there are plenty of Ukrainian-language sources that refer to a Soviet occupation of Ukraine until 1991 but this was determined to be a fringe view. In fact we had an AfD for this (and this was also a translation of an article from the Ukrainian Wikipedia). Mellk (talk) 15:43, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Merge Salvage what is possible from the article and merge it into the Russo-Polish War (1654–1667) page. Noorullah (talk) 05:52, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete: Agree with the nom, no such war happened, this is simply re-branding events in the Russo-Polish War (1654–1667) to get the name "Ukraine" in an title. The closest anything comes to this would be something like "Muscovite-Cossack skirmishes during the Russo-Polish War)", and I don't see SIGCOV from RS that would make this anything but an unneeded CFORK. The article itself is largely unsourced original research, I don't see anything here that would improve the a merge target.  // Timothy :: talk  09:47, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete: largely unsourced original research, and it's dubious if this subject even exists. Sources in the article are not convincing; same for the sources offered in this AfD. For example, this source includes this strange passage: ...Russian historiography officially treats this event as the “Reunification of Ukraine with Russia”, although there was no Russia at that time, and the entire world called only Ukrainians Russians, or Russian people.  But no one had a question, which land is called Rus', because again the whole world knew that Rus' is Ukraine." And so on. I don't see anything worth merging that's not already covered in the main article. --K.e.coffman (talk) 10:22, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete per above and my previous comments. There is very little that supports the idea of a separate war and there is not much to salvage from the article as it currently is. Mellk (talk) 11:46, 4 May 2024 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.