Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Music of Life


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   Withdrawn. The sources are sufficient in my opinion. Thanks to Megalaser for understanding the whole sources thing. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 01:56, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Music of Life

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Claims to be "influential" and "groundbreaking" in violation of WP:PEACOCK. Claims to have had a few hits, but I can't find anything on most of them — at least nothing tying to Music of Life. I couldn't find any sources anywhere for this label. Deprodded without comment. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 13:11, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 18:07, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 18:07, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

With respect may I please draw your attention to the Discogs page listing some of the releases, there have been many more: http://www.discogs.com/label/Music+Of+Life — Preceding unsigned comment added by Megalaser (talk • contribs) 21:50, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Music of Life was indeed the first ever record label in the United Kingdom to be dedicated to releasing hip-hop. The first hit record to enter the UK popular music charts was the Music of Life artist Derek B. Music of Life was the first label to sign only UK hip hop artists and actively promote their material, at the time in 1986 there were no other UK hip hop labels, many others followed hence the label was groundbreaking being the first and influential in that other labels followed the same business model. The information on the Wikipedia page is true and accurate, I would be happy to provide evidence to support this and ask that this page please not be deleted, it represents many years of work from the many people connected with the label. I apologize for the fact that I am no expert on the many rules of Wikipedia but as mentioned would be happy to provide whatever evidence is required to prove all information on the Music of Life page is true and accurate. Many Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Megalaser (talk • contribs) 21:39, 30 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Hello,

I was a staff writer on the UK's longest running hip-hop magazine Hip-Hop Connection between 2000 and 2009, and also co-curated the exhibition Homegrown: The Story of UK Hip-Hop at Urbis in Manchester in 2009. If you like I can direct you to plenty of references in print dating back to 1987 that verify MoL's existence as an innovative and influential record label in UK hip-hop.

MoL produced a good proportion of what is now considered among the UK hip-hop community 'the canon' of UK rap between 1987 and 1991. They were the first label to release records by Hijack and Demon Boyz - the former group pioneering what later became known as the Britcore sound, the latter representing a key stage in the development of the British MC styles that drew on UK Caribbean dancehall techniques - this is an important part of a UK MC style lineage that went through jungle, drum 'n' bass, garage and grime and has ultimately resulted in many of the fast MC patterns that you can hear in the wave of British rappers that has now found pop chart success in the UK (eg Tinchy Stryder, Dizzee Rascal, etc). Both Hijack and the Demon Boyz featured prominently in the top 10 of Hip-Hop Connection's top 100 UK rap singles of all time and of their top 100 UK rap albums.

MoL was also very important in championing Ragga Hip-Hop (ie hip-hop rhythms with dancehall MCs, not rappers whose styles show a dancehall influence) with Asher D and Daddy Freddy. This was, to the best of my knowledge an unrecorded concept in 1987 when they released the single 'Ragamuffin Hip-Hop' - I have, I should add, explored the area in depth as a journalist, curator, academic and, most importantly, fan. 'Ragamuffin Hip-Hop' is considered an iconic record in UK hip-hop circles, was one of the first UK produced hip-hop records to make an impact on New York hip-hop clubs and radio, and I would consider it a key record in the development of the intermixture of reggae and hip-hop that has characterised much British dance music. As for Derek B, he was indeed originally employed by MoL on the A&R side, and his first records were released on the label before he was signed to Phonogram - in fact, there is a strong argument to be made that the label acted as something of a sorting house for major labels' interests in British rap and dance acts. MoL was additionally responsible for releasing many key underground UK rap records by acts such as Hardnoise, MC Duke, She Rockers and the Three Kights, many of which are held up as examples of excellence in late 80s UK rap.

In my opinion it would be a disservice to MoL's significant contribution to hip-hop and dance music in the UK if you were to delete their entry. For an idea of the scope of their involvement in the UK hip-hop scene during the 80s you should perhaps look at the labels section of Heroesofukhiphop.com which devotes a page to the releases on MoL - though there is no text on the label itself, it should give you an idea of the size of the label's contribution relative to other listed labels (http://heroesofukhiphop.com/MusicOfLife.htm) - I am not, I should add, in any way affiliated to that website. But as I say, I am happy to provide you with a list of music press references, so please email me at the address I registered with and I will do so.

Best wishes,

James McNally — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmcn74 (talk • contribs) 12:01, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Moving a top-poster. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 16:33, 3 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:03, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

 
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Logan Talk Contributions 00:21, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

 Have you not read the above? Music of Life is a beloved UK independent record label, the page is accurate and true and it is heartbreaking and a true violation to have to defend the label in this way, the first hip hop label in the UK, the first label to have any mainstream success with UK hip hop and a label that so many followed and emulated. I realize and admit that I am no expert in how Wikipedia works, the above is true and accurate, I am sorry that this is not acceptable to you. Thousands of fans would vote if we knew how in Wikepedia coding language of course they would want Music of Life to retain it's Wikipedia page if we could figure out how to say it so that it is understood. Please do not delete the Music of Life wikipedia page. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Megalaser (talk • contribs) 01:23, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * For the love of God, SOMEONE FREAKING !VOTE. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 00:27, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It won't fly without reliable sources though. Are there any newspaper, magazine, etc. articles EXPLICITLY about Music of Life? That is, largely or entirely written about the label instead of a mere name-drop? Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 01:55, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Could you possibly get any more hurtful and disrespectful about this? You have obviously not reading or taking on board anything that we have been saying about the label. it started in 1986, before websites and the labels active period as 1986-1996, I have offered printed materials and had no response. You have responded to one of the references by saying that it's from a website limited to UK hip-hop, when in fact Music of Life was a UK hip-hop label, I know I am wasting my breath here and you are going to just delete the labels's Wikipedia page and Jethbot, thanks for voting to delete, your biog says you joined Wikipedia in 2006, Music of Life started in 1986, the first UK hip hop label, the first label to sign UK hip hop artists and for their music to enter the charts, the first label to license UK hip hop outside the UK and to major labels. None of this counts to you. . . . I know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Megalaser (talk • contribs) Dude. . . . . very uncool. Your rudeness is quite frankly astonishing to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Megalaser (talk • contribs) 22:50, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete The record label may have a couple of notable artists signed to it, but notability is not inherited from the artist to the company. Coverage of the music label are a few sentences in one magazine and a website whose coverage is limited to UK hiphop music.  This a surprisingly insufficient level of coverage for an apparently "famous" company noted by editors above.  It does not meet the notability guidelines for companies, and certainly does not meet the general notability guideline. I, Jethrobot drop me a line (note: not a bot!) 03:35, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Could you possibly get any more ignorant about the "there MUST BE SOURCES" rule? Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 22:33, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * This is a little bit of information, but it's still just a little bit. Little bits here and there won't add up. Also, Simon Harris + Music of Life gets a goose egg on Google News. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 23:47, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep – There's a little bit of sourcing available online, but it should not be surprising that a record label that had peak popularity in the late 1980s and early 1990s would have coverage not available through online searches. I find music writer James McNally's commentary (above) quite convincing, and thinks it's reasonable to believe him when he says there is print press about Music of Life (in other words, that the subject meets the general notability guideline). I can email him as he requested, and help gather the sources for the article. Meanwhile, we can see in online sources that there is an association with Derek B, the bits of coverage noted above, and some unknown amounts of coverage (found in Google, but without full text) in the magazine Blues & soul (1990), in Hip hop connection (2006), and in The Virgin encyclopedia of 80s music. Paul Erik  (talk) (contribs) 02:49, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm going to WP:AGF based on Paul's commentary here. Striking my above support to delete the article until McNally's additional sources not available online are considered. I, Jethrobot drop me a line (note: not a bot!) 08:01, 17 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep – Evidence has been provided as to the factual significance of the label, it's a subjective opinion as to what amount of evidence is enough, but how much is ever enough? The fact that there is indeed evidence as to the existence of the label and it's position within it's own genre, the influence that it has had to the fans and competitors and the fact that there has been responses from known and respected individuals who offer evidence that the information on the label is truthful and accurate should underline that the information on the page is not false and does represent a historical description of the label and it's significance. One person may not be a fan of a particular style of music but the fact that it does not appeal to that persons taste should not be a reason to have it removed. Music of Life is a label that is hugely influential and important to a large community of hip hop and rap fans in the United Kingdom, the label started in 1986 and it's most active years were not those when information was published online, it's therefore unreasonable to expect that published online material would be available immediately by a simple Google search. Evidence as to the labels importance appears across a variety of formats.including 20 year old magazine articles, printed books, photographs, awards for sales, memberships of organizations such as the UK Performing Rights Society (PRS), Phonographic Performance Ltd (PPL) with royalties administered by BMI, ASCAP, with recorded interviews on the BBC and other respected broadcasters, in publications including Music Week, Smash Hits, Echoes and Hip Hop Connection (Europe's leading Hip Hop magazine). If this can be disproven then there could be grounds for the label to be removed from Wikipedia but I propose it should REMAIN on the grounds that the information can be provided that the information on this important, significant and influential label does in fact exist and is truthful.Megalaser (talk) 07:48, 17 November 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Megalaser (talk • contribs) 07:44, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment Continually using promotional language such as "hugely influential" and "important to a large community of hip hop fans" is unhelpful when there appear to be no sources to back up those claims. The only sources provided so far have only shown that the label has published albums with several UK artists.  The printed books listed above seem to only provide brief mentions of the label, photographs are not evidence for notability, there's been no assertion of sales awards from McNally above, memberships do not provide evidence of notability, and there has also been no evidence of BBC recorded interviews.  It is not for us to disprove that these exist, but rather for people to provide proof that they do exist and that they provide content that goes beyond trivial mentions.  Finally, the fact that label exists is not really in question here, but that certainly does not constitute an argument for keeping the article. I, Jethrobot drop me a line (note: not a bot!) 08:10, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
 * CommentInfluential is a true fact not a promotional assertion because there is printed factual evidence that the label was the first and others did follow directly in it's footsteps. Important is also a true word because of the existence of the fans, the fact that other labels followed the same template shortly afterwards and the sales of the music that was released on the label. If the label was unimportant this would not have happened. Once again I am offering this evidence so if you would care to let me know where I can send it then I would be happy to. I have offered this several time and so have some of the other contributors and instead of contact information being provided the response has only been to be once again accused that no evidence exists. I have scanned printed materials, photographs and recordings of BBC news reports and interviews that back up the claims so please let me know how to contact you and where to send it. There appear to be no sources to back up the claims TO YOU because you are not interested in adequately researching yourself, looking in the right place or even accepting the evidence that we are willing to provide. You have already proposed deleting the label, there is no need to keep adding further insult to injury by directly accusing me of lying, you don't like the label or the music, I get it and so do the labels fans who are reading this and gaining further understanding of you from the content of this page. Thank You. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Megalaser (talk • contribs) 08:37, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Keep - Music of Life plays an important role in the German Wikipedia (!) articles about British hip-hop in general and britcore in particular. This role has never been doubted. In the former article Music of Life is even marked as a notable company. So an English article about Music of Life is nothing but an English translation of a German Wikipedia (!) article that is likely to be accepted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.18.156.152 (talk) 22:16, 17 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep – I run a website called Heroes Of UK Hip Hop and to be honest, without Music Of Life, that website would not exist. The label itself, influenced so many people around the world to get involved in hip hop. Not only was Music Of Life responsible for introducing so many new artists to the UK hip hop scene, it was responsible for creating new genre's and styles around the hip hop movement. It reached far beyond the United Kingdom, with Ice T (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_T) recognising it's status when he signed, the now legendary, 'Hijack' from Music Of Life to his 'Rhyme Syndicate Records' label around 1989 and Professor Griff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professor_Griff) from Public Enemy getting his solo debut release 'It's A Rap Thing' on Music Of Life back in 1990, in fact, the B-Side 'Rap Terrorist' is actually on his 'Pawns In The Game' debut album (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pawns_in_the_Game). It also went beyond hip hop, releasing LaToya Jackson's 'Oops Oh No' single as early as 1986, which is featured on Wikipedia here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oops,_Oh_No! To remove Music Of Life from Wikipedia would be a real shame, as it has played such an important part in music's history, I really do hope it is not removed as not only are you removing the label, you will be removing an important part of many artists career. Wikipedia is a very valuable and informative website and one of the only places where people can find out about subjects they hold close to their heart, like music, gaming, TV, films etc. and I know there are many people around the world that have fond memories of Music Of Life and would like to read about the information provided by this website. Wikipedia itself is proof of Music Of Life's legacy by the examples I have given and the amount of artists featured on here that were on the Music Of Life label, here is a link to the BBC website where Simon Harris (the founder of Music Of Life) is being interviewed: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00qnrd9 and for some more information on it's success visit here: http://www.musicindie.com/news/1111 Thank you for taking time to read this comment, Mr Webster.WebstaHeroes (talk) 11:47, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Update – I initiated email correspondence with User:Megalaser, who sent me files of scans from some magazines that have written about the subject. I've added multiple references just now. I'd say the subject meets the general notability guideline. Note that Music Week devoted an entire special issue to Music of Life (August 27, 1988). Multiple sources back up the contention that this music label was innovative and influential, as one of the first UK hip hop labels. Paul Erik  (talk) (contribs) 01:38, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.