Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Musicians who oppose Donald Trump's use of their music


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Consensus is for the article to be retained. North America1000 18:42, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Musicians who oppose Donald Trump's use of their music

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

This is useless, weird version of a list. Not notable for it's own article. See WP:Not every single thing Donald Trump does deserves an article.  Iamreallygoodatcheckerst@lk 17:02, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep as creator. Every entry is entirely reliably sourced by a combination of high level generally acceptable third party sources (BBC, CBS News, Chicago Tribune) and music sources vetted as reliable at WP:RSMUSIC. Additionally, the subject is discussed collectively by reliable sources as well - see Billboard Magazine and Billboard again, AP News, Ultimate Classic Rock Magazine, the list goes on and on. As such, it greatly confuses me that the nominator cites (the essay) WP:TRUMPNOT when it clearly passes both WP:GNG and WP:NLIST. Sergecross73   msg me  17:18, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians, Politics,  and Lists.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 17:48, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep. This article is not just an arbitrary list of similar occurrences. The general objection of artists to Trump using their songs has been noted in many sources. small jars 18:30, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment: There is no Trump rally article yet, which is definitely a notable topic that has received wide academic research; I think this would fit more snuggly in that hypothetical article in prose form. That said, the article has to exist first. Curbon7 (talk) 18:46, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd take that over deletion, but I think that would be difficult because, as you say, there's a lot of "ifs" involved there. The article would not only have to exist, but also be written in a way that isn't redundant to the existing Trump rally articles (see at the Trump rally link). Then you'd have to balance all of that with the contents of this article, which is already good size, and likely growing bigger with the next election cycle. Sergecross73   msg me  19:21, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete I don't see how this is encyclopedic content. Other presidents, as well as many other people, have had musicians complain about them using their music.  What purpose would articles for any of them serve?  This is just pointless trivia.   D r e a m Focus  19:13, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * As the article and my comments above show, it's a topic discussed frequently, both in individual cases and collectively, in high level general, political and music publications. You want to handwave that way with a vague accusation of being trivial? Sergecross73   msg me  19:23, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Could we not just fit a mention of this in a different article listing the name of the musicians that were against it? Should we have ana article for every politician it happened to?  Or just a general article about the situation. https://people.com/music/musicians-who-have-told-politicians-to-stop-using-their-music/ https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/top-10-musicians-who-objected-to-politicians-using-their-songs-a8591351.html https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-lists/stop-using-my-song-35-artists-who-fought-politicians-over-their-music-75611/ and many other places talking about this.   D r e a m Focus  19:41, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I originally wanted to create some other ones for other politicians of varying political ideologies, because I assumed I'd eventually get some bad-faith political accusations like this. But this doesn't happen so frequently with any other one politician. I did source hunting and figured that I couldn't justify making one for Obama, Romney, Biden, Clintons, etc because most of them only have a handful of occurrences to their name. I've checked in years since I created this one, but back then I couldn't get enough going to build anything else of substance.
 * That said, I listed a ton of sourcing above. Can you help me explain how this article in question doesn't meet WP:NLIST? Its honestly rare in my experience to get this variety and quantity of NLIST-confirming type sourcing. Sergecross73   msg me  20:00, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keeping this article does not set a precedent for making similar ones for random politicians. The press have given particular attention to this in the case of Donald Trump. If you search Google for musicians opposing Barack Obama's use of their music, for example, you'll only see articles about the general phenomenon, but musicians opposing Donald Trumps's use of their music returns articles specifically about Trump. small jars 20:08, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * These media sources loved Obama and hate Trump, so of course that is to be expected. This is a list of the 27 musicians who were against Trump.  There is no real content to it other than listing that they did, and which specific songs and the dates some things happened.  Donald_Trump_2016_presidential_campaign list which musicians objected to him using their music during that campaign.  In whatever campaign something happened in, just make a mention of this in the article for that campaign.   D r e a m Focus  21:08, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * That makes zero sense. The subject is musicians contesting Trump's unauthorized use of their music. Every entry documents the song that was used, the context of its use, and the details of the artist's response to its use. Every aspect is covered, there's no further context to give. And you again cannot answer how this doesn't meet NLIST. Your comments reek of WP:IDONTLIKEIT and WP:NOTENCYCLOPEDIC. Sergecross73   msg me  21:32, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment Usually if a musician has issues with a political campaign using their music, it's settled with a quiet cease-and-desist and promise not to do it again, and we never learn about it until years after the fact through the artists' and the deceased politician's archives (and it never gets to WP:N). Here, these are musicians that have done the quiet cease-and-desist, this campaign has completely ignored it and continued to play their music, and forced a public statement which the subject has blatantly ignored. This is definitely encyclopedic due to the subject's bizarre want to annoy everyone and be in court constantly.  Nate  • ( chatter ) 21:34, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * If you think it's just due to left-wing bias, try a search for Ronald Reagan: same lack of specific attention. small jars 22:53, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep Cited well, and per my above statement.  Nate  • ( chatter ) 21:34, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment: I would like to make some further arguments in favor of deletion. For this article to be noteworthy, it would need to be established in RS that the concept of musicians opposing him using their music is notable within itself. What this article is doing is taking a bunch of unconnected-news articles about a musicians opposing Trump using there music and arbitrarily listing them to craft this article to make it appear as though the concept is supported by RS, when in reality it really isn't. It's like if I got a bunch of unconnected RS that mentioned Trump walking his dog on the south lawn on different days and trying to say that the abundance of those articles proved the concept is notable. This can probably be very reasonably mentioned at Donald Trump in popular culture or Public image of Donald Trump.  Iamreallygoodatcheckerst@lk 21:35, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Did you miss my first comment in this discussion? I listed off 5 reliable sources already that covered the subject collectively. And there's more out there, I can keep going, its just that usually 5 or so is enough to drive the point home. Sergecross73   msg me  21:39, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * A few sources doesn't prove this article is needed. It can all be summarized with those sources in other articles. It would have to be quite extensively covered to warrant it's own article.  Iamreallygoodatcheckerst@lk 21:41, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * It's not even close to only a few, I just stopped at a few because more is often seen as overkill. Here's many more reliable source publications that cover this concept collectively in detail (again, passing NLIST, which no opposers have even addressed, let alone successfully contested):
 * https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/musicians-against-donald-trump-7430903/
 * https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-ronald-reagan-hip-hop-and-rap-phil-collins-bruce-springsteen-394ddb622b30a718f1b4621a316a78c3
 * https://ultimateclassicrock.com/rockers-donald-trump-campaign-songs/
 * https://pitchfork.com/thepitch/musicians-might-be-able-to-finally-stop-trump-from-using-their-songs/
 * https://www.marketwatch.com/story/princes-estate-joins-the-likes-of-rihanna-pharrell-and-adele-in-telling-trumps-campaign-to-stop-playing-their-songs-2019-10-11
 * https://www.vulture.com/article/the-history-of-musicians-rejecting-donald-trump.html
 * https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/music/every-musician-with-a-beef-or-lawsuit-against-donald-trump-11494104
 * https://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/529275-musicians-who-opposed-trumps-use-of-their-music-in-2020/
 * https://www.yahoo.com/now/prince-estate-calls-out-trump-for-playing-his-music-rihanna-the-rolling-stones-and-many-more-have-done-the-same-010505898.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJdSyiasZZQuU9vv4MvXHPikVyLnIdxfuGOGSEkktDO_JI98sAmtR8lbRFtj0ERQoI0BRgleBJ1WjX0To72rLHW01bXlVtGfgy8VWzCsz7cC3GgfFU33x2A-cnPuWB4wuyeTkETwfmh1Pp414lellwbJ3pl35lfENTJFVbpb6m7w
 * https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/musicians-who-want-donald-trump-to-stop-playing-their-music-a7151171.html
 * https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/trump-s-maga-music-has-rock-n-roll-icons-crying-ncna1238530
 * https://www.kerrang.com/10-bands-that-donald-trump-has-fallen-out-with
 * https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/music/story/2020-08-24/president-trump-rally-rnc-music-neil-young-rolling-stones
 * https://www.esquire.com/uk/culture/news/a10489/donald-trump-banned-music/


 * This is already far more than what is normally needed to convince people NLIST is met. Sergecross73   msg me  21:54, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep per Sergecross73 Andre🚐 06:03, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep: Passes WP:NLIST as it has been discussed as a group by independent reliable sources. ––FormalDude  (talk)  10:54, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Weak keep - this does pass WP:NLIST per the sources Sergecross73 provided, but as others have alluded to, this seems more like an indiscriminate collection of information than encyclopedic content. Artists getting mad at politicians (or anyone they disagree with) using their music is nothing new - these sources only exist because Trump is, well, Trump. Would strongly support merging this content into one of the other numerous Trump-related articles. Highway 89 (talk) 15:48, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't see it as indiscriminate, its has a very defined scope that, to my knowledge, documents every noteworthy occurrence to date. And as was also mentioned above, I think there's a bit more to it than just "because Trump is Trump". To expand on it: Trump gets so much more coverage on this subject because he does this far more frequently than other politicians, and he often doesn't stop even after he's asked - both to a level unseen with any other politician. I've never quite understood if it should be attributed to a deliberate strategy, or carelessness, but his approach to this is definitely different. For example, Trump would not hesitate to use the music of well-known liberal leaning musicians like Neil Young, Bruce Springsteen, or Panic at the Disco's Brendon Urie, but Biden/Clinton/Obama would not generally even entertain using the music of conservative artists like Ted Nugent or Kid Rock. Its not a criticism, I'm just saying one approach generates far more coverage than the other, and that's why its worth documenting. Sergecross73   msg me  16:33, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * He gets more coverage because they write more articles about him. CNN lost most of its viewers once they no longer had Trump to talk about every day.  Everyone was writing about him constantly about anything they could think to write about, since that got them views.  Many past politicians got away with using music without permission because they didn't irritate the owners enough for them to make a comment about it.  You are just documenting Trump getting more attention than others because the media hated him and/or knew they'd get more attention.   D r e a m Focus  02:08, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep It's frankly a weird choice of a list, but well, it's fairly referenced and should be kept. --Bedivere (talk) 15:59, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Strong Delete No lasting historical value. Of the moment and completely generic in nature. Happens all the time, all over the world and has been happening for centuries. Completely non-notable trivia. Trash Fails WP:NLIST.  scope_creep Talk  13:23, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * How does it fail NLIST specifically? Nothing you said has anything to do with NLIST. Sergecross73   msg me  13:26, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep - What the list needs is a better lead and/or overview section that cites some of the many, many articles about this phenomenon in general (i.e. treats them as a group). It's an easy WP:LISTN pass. &mdash; Rhododendrites  talk \\ 16:27, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Good idea. I'll try to develop something like that. Thank you! Sergecross73   msg me  17:07, 21 February 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.