Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Muslim denominations


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Islamic schools and branches. There is near-unanimous consensus to not keep this as a stand-alone article. Opinion is somewhat more split between outright deletion and redirect. Going with the redirect, partly on strength of numbers, partly because of WP:ATD, and partly because that's what this was historically.

One of the points of contention here is what specific meaning the word denomination has, in the context of Islam. As near as I can make out from the discussion here, it has a less specific meaning in Islam than it does in Christianity, but there's no real consensus on that. -- RoySmith (talk) 21:38, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Muslim denominations

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

This page duplicates Islamic schools and branches primarily, but also Islam by country to a certain extent. "Muslim denominations" has been a redirect for years, until this Turkish IP user converted the redir into what it is now. I have seen this IP frequently edit pages that list Islamic subgroups, such as Template:Islamic theology, and seems to be oblivious about the common English definition of "denomination" (see this discussion). Islamic schools and branches is the main list for the classification of Islamic subgroups, having gotten its current title after discussions several years ago. and I agree that Muslim denominations is a redundant page and should be reverted to a redirect, but the IP needs convincing. Hopefully this AfD will do. HyperGaruda (talk) 17:50, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Islam-related deletion discussions. HyperGaruda (talk) 17:50, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. HyperGaruda (talk) 17:50, 30 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete and redirect per nom. The content is copied from other articles and a quick review of dictionaries confirms that the term "denomination" doesn't have a specific meaning beyond Christianity to distinguish it from "schools and branches". Eperoton (talk) 19:55, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
 * but consider this issue: Islamic schools and branches is too long and does not tell anything about the Muslim denominations immediately. The reader has to spend a lot of time to understand what the Muslim denominations are. Islamic schools and branches give a lot of information about the all type of schools and denominations but it does not give the answer quickly if the person is asking what these denominations are...212.253.113.70 (talk) 00:54, 1 July 2016 (UTC) 212.253.113.70 (talk) 00:55, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
 * And guess who made it that long? It would save thousands of bytes if you would have used a WP:BULLETLIST instead of sub-sub-sub headers, and if you would've simply used a link in the main text instead of calling Template:Main for each subsection. - HyperGaruda (talk) 02:21, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. North America1000 07:48, 1 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep - per rational here by 212.253.113.70 and there are ample citations in Google scholar, news, newspapers etc. Denominations exist within Islam such as Sunni Islam is the world's largest religious denomination followed by Roman Catholicism. Such denominations should not be covered under Islamic schools and branches. Drikulaeri (talk) 09:51, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
 * One simple question: what is the difference between a branch and a denomination? - HyperGaruda (talk) 11:18, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
 * The most common term, judging from phrase counts in Google books, is "the Sunni sect", followed by "the Sunni branch", followed by "the Sunni denomination", and I see no evidence that these terms are used differently in RSs. We don't create separate articles for synonyms of a word. Eperoton (talk) 12:55, 3 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment - Most Kazakh Muslims are Non-denominational Muslim. Drikulaeri (talk) 10:02, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
 * What is the relevance to this AfD discussion? Eperoton (talk) 12:55, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Schools of Islamic theology and Sufism do not belong to the denominations. But, Sufism might be considered as part of Branches. 212.253.113.70 (talk) 16:19, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I suspect you will nevertheless find they are Sunnis.


 * Merge or redirect to Islamic schools and branches. Denominations is a term arising in Protestant Christianity and is far from ideal when applied to Islam.  The merge target has tags on it about duplication.  I would say that it is thoroughly appropriate to have an article giving an overview with "main" articles on particular topics.  The mistake is to allow the overview article to become cluttered with detail that should be in the "main" ones.  When this happens, an editor needs to Boldly prune the overview of excessive details, if necessary merging that to the "main" article.  Peterkingiron (talk) 10:12, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment: I've just looked up RSs on the various uses of "denomination" for Religious denomination: Within Islam, it can refer to the branches or sects (Sunni, Shia, Ahmadiyya), as well as their various subdivisions such as sub-sects, schools of jurisprudence, schools of theology and religious movements.  This range of use is basically identical to the scope of Islamic schools and branches. Eperoton (talk) 18:40, 7 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment - 2 : The information provided above is incorrect. Ash'ari alone which is aqida in Islam is not a denomination since there is no such group of people following this. Reference provides false information 212.253.113.70 (talk) 21:59, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
 * It looks like there's another policy you need to consult: WP:NPOV. Eperoton (talk) 18:23, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I would also like to recommend the IP to read WP:TRUTH. - HyperGaruda (talk) 21:41, 8 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete. There's an unhealthy trend with lot of these Madhhab and Fiqh related articles that needs to be corrected, beginning with deleting the overlapping content. There are entire physics articles on Wikipedia with less word count and equations than certain subsections of some sub-sub-sub denomination and their obscure details. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not an online seminary. c Ө de1+6 TP  22:27, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Schools of Islamic Theology
If you read the article on Amman Message, it gives an impression as if Maturidi and Ash'ari were "Muslim denominations". But this is not true since nobody calls himself as a member of Maturidi orAsh'ari alone. In order to define their denominations they have to define their own madhhabs as well. Otherwise, they will be non-denominational. 212.253.113.70 (talk) 11:21, 5 July 2016 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 02:43, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Actually, if you glance at the template-Islam, you can easily see that the Denominations section is in contradiction with what is written in Islamic schools and branches article. The Schools of Islamic theology are mentioned and summarized in the Islamic schools and branches article, even though everybody knows that they are not Muslim denominations, but different denominations have something common with them. For example, a member of Hanafi denomination may have views or share some ideas of Maturidi or Ash'ari aqidah. Similarly, a member of Zaydi denomination may have views or share some ideas of Mu'tazili aqidah. Hence, we need Muslim denominations for details. When you click to denominations section in template islam, it automatically takes you to Islamic schools and branches article. This article includes things which are not related to Muslim denominations, therefore this links needs correction as well. 212.253.113.70 (talk) 11:08, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Let me again recommend reading WP:OR. You have been prolific in expressing your personal take on the meaning of the word "denomination" here and elsewhere, but personal opinions don't carry much weight around here. Eperoton (talk) 14:06, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
 * According to template - Islam they are not denominations, this is your announcement and template - Islam is well-protected, ıf they are really denominations why they are not listed in the template - Islam? 212.253.113.70 (talk) 14:20, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
 * You may also want to consult WP:RS. WP templates are not RSs. Whether or not that template needs changing is a discussion which belongs not here, but on its own talk page. Eperoton (talk) 14:30, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Nothing should be in contradiction with another Wikipedia item since all these article's contents are closely related with each other. Actually, people learn from Wikipedia pages when they continue to make heir contributions. 212.253.113.70 (talk) 14:36, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
 * You won't get far by sharing your opinions ex cathedra and disregarding WP policies. Eperoton (talk) 14:44, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I'd try to stay within the boundary of the previously approved Wikipedia articles and the template - Islam is restricting our actions. If you will express something which is in contradiction with the template - Islam  you're supposed to make the necessary changes there first, I believe. 212.253.113.70 (talk) 14:52, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
 * There are no "approved" articled on WP. Sometimes an extensive discussion yields a WP:CONSENSUS. A quick perusal of the template's talk archives shows that it's not the case here. Eperoton (talk) 15:00, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
 * O.K. Then. I thought we are restricted to these templates, because there was a long discussion in the past about this template. As a result of these discussions, they did considerable modifications on the Template:Religion topics, and they were very useful.
 * I've learned more than 90% my knowledge from Wikipedia pages. Also consider this: There were Hanafi denominations from Mu'tazila aqidah in the history even tough today all converted Maturidi & Ash'ari. 212.253.113.70 (talk) 15:18, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   06:34, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Islamic schools and branches and protect. It is not apparent what the distinction between the topics might be, and we do not need WP:CFORKs.  Sandstein   06:36, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Therefore Islamic schools and branches cannot be identical to Muslim denominations] 212.253.113.96 (talk) 12:34, 15 July 2016 (UTC) 212.253.113.96 (talk) 17:52, 15 July 2016 (UTC) 212.253.113.96 (talk) 18:30, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
 *  Islamic schools and branches provides false information about the M-denominations 
 * 1) Schools of Islamic Theology cannot be a part of M-denominations: Nobody calls themselves as Athari, Maturidi or Ash'ari when their denom. is asked. In addition, template:Islam concurs with tis notion.
 * 2) Amman Message declares the officially recognized M-denoms as Eight. You can increase this number by adding some other minorities, who are not accepted by the declaration of the Amman Message.
 * 3) Sufi tariqat cannot be included under the denominations since they are all sunni or Shi'ite.
 * Redirect. Denominations can be presented as a subset of the Islamic schools and branches page and the current re-working of the page goes a long way to eliminate the need of the M-denom page existing by itself. c Ө de1+6 TP  15:28, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
 *  severely Needed to KEEP Muslim denominations separately:  Why will everybody read all of your staff under the schools as you claim, if they just wondering what those Muslim denominations are?
 *  Islamic schools and branches article is inconsistent with the M-denominations section of Template:Islam:  Denominations section does reflect the reality neither in Islamic schools and branches- article nor in Template:Islam, hence it is inconsistent with itself. In addition, Islamic schools and branches-article does tell nothing about the populations and their distribution around the globe. This is crucial if you are talking about the populations on the contrary to the schools.
 * Comment -- I voted for a merge/redirect above. I am not a Muslim and do not know the detail well.  However, if articles and templates are inconsistent, the solution is to edit things so that they are consistent.  If someone can provide a robust definition for "denomination" in a Muslim context, as something distinct from "Islamic (theological) schools of thought", then it will be acceptable to keep both, but they should be providing complimentary content, not repeating what the other says.  If a robust distinction cannot be provided, then the articles should be merged, with one of the present names becoming a redirect to the other.  Peterkingiron (talk) 16:59, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Redirect as all of this suggests it's best. SwisterTwister   talk  19:06, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Islamic schools and branches.  This doppelgänger serves no function.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:06, 28 July 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.