Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mustafa Ülgen


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. Flowerparty ☀ 00:41, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Mustafa Ülgen

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Comment : Several editors apparently felt that this person is not notable enough. The prod was removed and then replaced, therefore I have listed this for a deletion dicussion. Personally I have no opinion on this. Passportguy (talk) 22:40, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions.  -- TexasAndroid (talk) 23:06, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete. No evidence of impact of acheivements of this worthy dentist. Structure of article as a CV and publication list is quite unsuitable. Xxanthippe (talk) 23:33, 31 May 2009 (UTC).

Comment I just wanted to note that usually be allow all university professors their own page on here, as that status alone is considered an indication of notability. I'm not quite sure why this person should be an exception. Passportguy (talk) 23:36, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment May be I should have put this as a draft, I am quite new here. What I don't understand is a Turkish Pop Singer and her/his albums that the world doesn't know about is notable enough to be in wikipedia, but an honourable Scientist, a Dentist that made big achievements in Orthodontics in Turkey can be not notable enough for wikipedia. Mustafa Ulgen unfortunately is not a product of pop culture, but I thought this didn't make him less notable. I believe Mustafa Ulgen is an important person for anyone who would like to know/understand Dentistry/Orthodontics in Turkey. This article may not have enough about him, but I hope that in the future other people can add more.Alpsays (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:37, 1 June 2009 (UTC).


 * It should be noted that the subject of the article is the father of Alpsays, see User talk:RadioFan. Xxanthippe (talk) 00:49, 1 June 2009 (UTC).


 * "usually be allow all university professors their own page on here", no, generally we only allow University Professors that pass WP:PROF to have pages, and I think that is generally thought to be less than "most" of them, let alone "all". Pete.Hurd (talk) 01:26, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 *  Do Not Delete If WP:PROF is the standard I don't understand what is all the fuss about. Prof. Dr. Mustafa Ulgen (4. The person's academic work has made a significant impact in the area of higher education, affecting a substantial number of academic institutions.) His E-Books are read all over Turkey for dentistry education http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dentistry.ankara.edu.tr%2Fkutuphane.html&sl=tr&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 (5. The person holds or has held a named/personal chair appointment or "Distinguished Professor" appointment at a major institution of higher education and research.),(6. The person has held a major highest-level elected or appointed academic post at an academic institution or major academic society.) He was a dean for two years in the University of Tigris ( Dicle ) Diyarbakır http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dicle.edu.tr%2Ffakulte%2Fdis%2Fyonetim.htm&sl=tr&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 Please check the section where it says "UNIVERSITY FACULTY DİCLE the establishment SOON dental work of the DEAN" The Correct Translation is The Dean's of University Faculty Dicle from its establishment to it's day Alpsays (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:31, 1 June 2009 (UTC).


 * Keep for limited period, to allow a chance for improvement. I think that good faith should be presumed with respect to the conflict of interest mentioned above.  The article does not follow the usual style for a biography stub, which I think is what it would be if pruned and tidied, but that is not a reason to delete out-of-hand by itself.  Experienced Wiki editors should help Alpsays with this article, and that would also allow some independence.  Not my area, I'm afraid, but any volunteers?  A.C. Norman (talk) 11:16, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete Unfortunately there is a conflict of interest to contend with here as well, the creator of this article is the professor's son (see my talk page). While the subject is likely notable, there isn't anything in this CV-like article worth saving and it should be deleted.--RadioFan (talk) 11:27, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep. The links above would seem to show that the subject passes WP:PROF. The article can easily fixed by a bit of copyediting and cutting the list of publications to just the most important ones. Conflict of interest is not a reason to delete, but simply for other editors to review content for neutrality - I, for one, have this on my watchlist now so I can help out with this. COI is also much less of a problem when it is disclosed. Dentists might not be as exciting as TV talent show contestants but it is possible to write encyclopedia articles about them. Just a couple of weeks ago I found an article tagged for deletion whose entire prose content was "Sheldon Friel was an Irish dentist" but I think (blowing my own trumpet) that I managed to turn it into a pretty decent start-class article. The only things stopping me from doing the same with this one are physical and linguistic access to sources - I doubt whether any of the sources for this subject would be available in my local library and even if they were I wouldn't be able to read them. The point of the additional notablity criteria such as WP:PROF is that they are strong indicators that reliable sources exist, even if they are not online and in English. We already have enough sources for verifiability of the main facts in the article. Phil Bridger (talk) 16:48, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Weak Delete. The main tests I could see applying here are WP:PROF criteria 1 and/or 4. His textbook would seem to claim #4, but I'm not in a position to judge its impact. However, his publication record looks insufficient for #1. Web of Science, liberally searching on "Author=(ulgen m*), Refined by: Subject Areas=(DENTISTRY, ORAL SURGERY & MEDICINE)", lists 4 publications, all from Am. J. Orthodontics & Dentofacial Orthoped., having 12, 10, 5, and 5 citations respectively. Note that this article lists a veritable boatload of other publications (some of which seem to be various editions of his textbook). Most of the "journal articles" are from "Faculty of Dentistry Magazine" from several different universities – these are almost certainly not peer-reviewed research publications. Likely ditto for "Pedodontics Magazine". Roughly a dozen other articles from "Turkish Journal of Orthodontics", but it is unclear whether this is a standard research journal for the profession. Answer seems to be in the nagative, since it is not in the list of over 50 dental journals indexed by WoS (J. Dent. Res., J. Endodontics, J. Clin. Peridontology, etc.). Respectfully, Agricola44 (talk) 18:37, 1 June 2009 (UTC).
 * Keep. As Phil Bridger points out that with a bit of help this could become a start-class article. It just needs to be polished a bit. Jarkeld (talk) 19:49, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment. His argument goes mainly to WP:V, but that's not the issue here. Rather, as Xxanthippe points out above, the question is whether this individual meets WP:PROF. The argument that somehow the latter is simply a proxy of the former ("the point of the additional notablity criteria such as WP:PROF is that they are strong indicators that reliable sources exist") is incorrect. There are lots of people for whom verifiable sources exist, but who are nevertheless not sufficiently notable for WP. For example, think of your average local politician or news reporter. The two considerations should not be confused with one another. Finally, the links Phil refers to above basically just confirm he's a faculty member – nice for WP:V, but these don't offer any further support toward WP:PROF. Respectfully, Agricola44 (talk) 21:00, 1 June 2009 (UTC).


 * Delete. Per Xxanthippe and Agricola44. Passes neither WP:PROF nor WP:BIO. Phil Bridger makes valid points, but the subject is not at the same level of notability as Sheldon Friel.--Eric Yurken (talk) 01:36, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep The usual standard for researchers under WP:PROF is that research is an international activity, and international standards apply. If so, he might not qualify as a researcher. There are 15 papers of his in Pubmed (search for Ulgen M limited to the dental journals subset. although none of the Turkish journals he published in are included there, the German ones are as well as the American. Only the American ones are however in WoS; they are in a major journal, and have 12, 10, 5, 5 citations. Scopus as expected covers more of the journals, including 5 articles in turkish; unfortunately, it does not cover reliably back to the years of his major work.  I do not have access to Excerpta Medica, which probably covers some more of them. This is not a distinguished record, but it is sufficient to show  national impact--and in an applied subject like this, I think that to some degree it might be more appropriate to take national standards into account.  In any case, the publication of multiple reviews and textbooks, and the apparent Deanship of a Dental school, is enough to show an impact as an educator in his field.  I  am not concerned about WP:V, because the key papers can be verified easily enough. What I am concerned about  is ethnocentric bias on our part and the indexes. Even when a citation index covers a few major journals in a third world country, it does not cover the many journals there that would cite them; for English journals, it does cover such titles. The results are thus never comparable. DGG (talk) 03:50, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment. While your observation is correct, it is also why "third-world" authors do strive to publish in western journals. As far as I know, these journals do not have any systematic ethnocentric biases – if the work is notable it gets published. You could always reason one step further, saying that being in a third world country affects one's ability to do notable research, but I would say that this would digress too far for our present purposes. Respectfully, Agricola44 (talk) 17:36, 4 June 2009 (UTC).
 * Comment. When we are talking about third world countries we would like to mention them as developing countries. I would like to stress one point not only for this article, but for articles/ persons in general on Wikipedia as one might say Wikipedia International. If you set one standard for everyone what you will see on the International Wikipedia is there won't be any diversity (It would be Western World's Wikipedia). Therefore it is not right to use a standard set for first world countries to understand the history and development of a developing country's major field/fields. It won't be the right way of calculating the impact/notability. This would not be rational. What I am trying to say with Mustafa Ulgen is, here is a person that had done some significant impact on his country's orthodontics. He hasn't re-invented the wheel nor he hasn't got a significant impact on the international basis, but the book he has published first on 1983 Principles of Orthodontics Treatment is the first comprehensive book on Orthodontics in Turkish and for two decades and a half it is still the only book in the Turkish Language the students of dentistry study from (various editions of this book, 7th being the last edition, proves the point). Moreover the teachings he learned at Zurich he brought them to Turkey and thought what he has learned throughout his career. And when comes to his publications in Turkish Journals, they are the most reputable universities in Turkey (thus you shouldn't undermine he has 14 publications in western Journals). I can not put all of the facts because of the neutral point of view, what i am hoping for is in the future this entry will develop by others. At the moment in time the only reference I can find is from Who's Who in Turkey which is limited with what I have put in the entry and I am not sure if that is enough. I found out that he is in the Inegol village museum, but I need to check the full details. I need help on the index, I didn't know whether I was suppose to translate the subjects of the Turkish articles into English or what would be the right way of showing them.--Alpsays (talk) 02:20, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment I'm confused, is this person known for his technical contributions to the field of dentistry or is he known for the translation of existing texts or techniques into Turkish? Is he known internationally?  There is still only a single reference in this article so coverage in 3rd party sources has yet to be established here.  --RadioFan (talk) 12:15, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment No he is not known internationally. His impact was to his country. I'm not in the field so I can't really give a substantial answer to his technical contributions nor research. He is important for his teachings in his field, shared his knowledge (training/findings) and expertise to his country. He brought the western Orthodontics and latest developments in his field from Zurich which was ahead of many places at the time like London. He went to London to practice their techniques as well and find out they were behind Zurich, so he ended up giving his first conference at 1974 in University College Hospital Medical School of University of London Dental School and left. He is also a researcher, but I don't know the impact of his researches in the field nor whether he has invented a new technique. For the later, I don't think he has.  As a result I tried to keep the biography to minimum basics. Knowledge is as valuable as gold. Sometimes so little can have so much impact. It is hard to imagine if you are not in a developing country. I really don't mind if you want to delete this entry. I will just put it in to a blog on the internet and get on with it. Initially I would like to put this article to Turkish Wikipedia. It is more likely that his students and people know him could develop this article further over there, but the Turkish Wikipedia is under a fascistic regime, they have erased the entry within the first couple of hours I put it up without any reason or discussion. They haven't given me the chance to develop the entry further as happened on this free platform. At the end of the day this is a voluntary work and everybody deserves respect for their time and work they put in. I appreciate everybody's comments and good will here. I wouldn't like to occupy anybodies time further. I didn't know how much work went into this live project before. Keep up the good work, my heart is with all of you.--Alpsays (talk) 14:26, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.