Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Myanmar Historical Research Journal


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Ministry of Religious Affairs and Culture (Myanmar). To Piotrus' point, there isn't a strong consensus on the target, but this can be changed as a matter of editorial discretion. There is consensus that there isn't enough to support a standalone article. Star  Mississippi  14:12, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Myanmar Historical Research Journal

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Article PRODed with reason "Article has a single referenced brief article that may or may not be about this journal (as the text is given as an image, it cannot be pasted into Google Translate). Searching for the English and the Burmese title does not give any results, apart from a few booksellers and a few references to articles on the CVs of a few academics. Does not meet WP:NJournals or WP:GNG." Article dePRODed by creator with reason posted on article's talk page, arguing that the journal meets NJournals. No support in any reliable sources that their reasoning is correct. For example, 23-something libraries in WorldCat is really very paltry. A smattering of citations on GScholar is too be expected and nothing above normal (instead rather below...) In short, PROD reason stands, hence: delete. Randykitty (talk) 21:53, 2 April 2023 (UTC) Strong Keep. Myanmar Historical Research Journal (MHRJ) is one of the few reliable academic research sources from Myanmar that is frequently cited by both English-speaking (e.g., Michael Aung-Thwin and Jacques Leider) and Burmese-speaking scholars. This paper for instance, notes: "Besides, the new Myanmar Historical Research Journal has provided a platform for several studies of individual inscriptions," after a long period of academic stasis in the country, following the 1962 Burmese coup d'état. Another journal paper acknowledges MHRJ as the only journal published within the country for Burma/Myanmar studies. Below is my detailed response to Randykitty's assertions:
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Academic journals and Myanmar. Randykitty (talk) 21:53, 2 April 2023 (UTC)


 * "Article has a single referenced brief article that may or may not be about this journal (as the text is given as an image, it cannot be pasted into Google Translate)."


 * This assertion seems to imply that I have somehow mischaracterised the source used in the article (see WP:GOODFAITH). Others who can read Burmese, please feel free to vouch for whether the source (available here) supports the referenced content in the article.


 * "Searching for the English and the Burmese title does not give any results, apart from a few booksellers and a few references to articles on the CVs of a few academics. Does not meet WP:NJournals or WP:GNG."


 * MHRJ has been cited as a source by seminal publications, including The Mists of Ramanna. Frontier Myanmar also references some archaeological findings published in a 1998 issue of the journal (source). Due to MHRJ's importance in Myanmar's domestic scholarship, all publications of new journal issues are announced and summarised on government-published newspapers. For instance, I found references to MHRJ in this 2011 issue of Kyemon (see page 2 of PDF, bottom right hand column) or more recently, this 2022 issue of Myanma Alin (see page 11 of PDF, top column).
 * I also want to note that Google is not a reliable means of locating Burmese language sources (nor is it a good proxy for establishing notability for Burmese subjects), because Burmese language content online is not comprehensively indexed by search engines, due to encoding compatibility issues. For instance, those PDFs mentioned above are not encoded in Unicode, meaning that a standard keyword search of the journal's Burmese name "မြန်မာသမိုင်းသုတေသနစာစောင်" within the PDF would not yield any inline results.
 * WP:N also notes: "Sources do not have to be available online or written in English." MHRJ is largely a Burmese-language journal that is physically printed, meaning the majority of scholars rely on physical prints (or scans) of this journal or on library holdings. Australian National University mentions MHRJ as a "key journal" for Burma/Myanmar studies (here).
 * The broader note I want to make is this: just because it is not extensively referenced online, or is not written in English does not automatically preclude the subject from notability. I'm reminded of WP:WORLDVIEW's section, "Availability of sources may cause bias" and the broader challenge that Wikipedia editors from the Global South face. If anything, the paucity of English language sources re: this journal speaks more to the decades-long isolation of Myanmar's academic community, coupled with the lack of Western interest in Burma/Myanmar studies. --Hintha 💬 04:54, 3 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Comment I'm sorry, but nothing that you write above convinces me. All the articles that you list have only in-passing mentions, none are in-depth. As for the image/text issue, I should have been clearer as I never doubted your good faith. What I meant was that this one paragraph "article" might be about the journal or might be about, for example, an article in the journal, which is not the same thing. In any case, whatever it translates to, that one paragraph cannot be an in-depth analysis of the journal. As for being reliable, the article by Andrew Selth (Modern Burma Studies: A Survey of the Field) in one of just two sentences mentioning this journal notes that it is "subject to censorship by the regime". As for possible bias, there is none. This journal is just held up to our normal criteria and Burmese-language sources are acceptable, but they have to be in-depth and independent in order to prove notability. --Randykitty (talk) 07:49, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CycloneYoris talk! 02:06, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The journal is not notable, but merging to Ministry of Religious Affairs and Culture (Myanmar) seems a better solution than deletion. &#32; Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 08:25, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Being only a very minor activity of this ministry, wouldn't that be WP:UNDUE? --Randykitty (talk) 08:41, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Nevertheless, it's a solution I could live with per WP:ATD. --Randykitty (talk) 13:32, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Comment I'm pretty sure google translate can process images. Either way it's questionable to attack notability on the basis that you don't personally have access to the cited sources, otherwise people would be able to disregard everything paywalled too. (Though maybe that's where we're headed with the LLM situation anyway.) small jars 10:14, 10 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Perhaps you can tell us what translation Google Translate gives, because I can't get it to work with an image. In any case, as I said above, a small single paragraph cannot be an in-depth analysis of the journal, so this source doesn't count towards notability. And I have searched using both the English and the Burmese title, but cannot find any sources, behind a paywall or not. I don't know what the "LLM situation" is... Finally, far as I can see, I have not complained about not having access to any sources, I have complained about not finding any sources... --Randykitty (talk) 14:50, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Apparrantly you need to use "google lens", not translate, but here it is:
 * small jars 23:54, 10 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks!! I must admit that this is the first time I hear about "Google lens"... In any case, it is as I suspected: this is more an ad than a discussion of the journal and does not contribute to notability. --Randykitty (talk) 08:02, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Weak keep: Of course the journal is unavailable online, for many works published by the ministry have not yet been digitalized. But it indeed is prestigious and notable among the Burmese scholars in the fields of Burmese language and history, most of whose works are also—unfortunately—in printed version only. Htanaungg (talk) 16:05, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
 * That may be true, but on what should we build our article if there are no (available) sources? And do you have any proof for the assertion that this journal is "prestigious and notable"? --Randykitty (talk) 17:17, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
 * , Hay, Myanmar is a developing country and may not have all resources available online, as it is not as technologically advanced as countries like the United States. 49.237.13.44 (talk) 20:11, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't believe that the lack of online sources is specifically an strike against notability in AfD. Sources just need to be reliable, whether accessible to a random internet user or not.  EmeraldRange  (talk/contribs) 19:28, 13 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep The Myanmar Historical Research Journal is an important research paper on Burmese history that is published by the government. It is cited for several historical events and serves as a main source for the "History" subject in Myanmar's higher education curriculum. The journal is also used for state-level education studies. As mentioned above by respected Burmese editor User:Hintha stated "Australian National University mentions MHRJ as a "key journal" for Burma/Myanmar studies. It appears that the Myanmar Historical Research Journal is also utilized as a source for history studies outside of Myanmar. It is questionable to judge the importance of this journal for Myanmar, particularly when Burmese editors are underrepresented on the English-language Wikipedia platform. Clearly a WP:IDONTLIKE on Myanmar. I am shocked that the nominator is rejecting all comments, even though the Myanmar Historical Research Journal is an invaluable source on the History of Myanmar. 49.237.13.44 (talk) 19:57, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
 * It is important to note that since you are not Burmese, you may not have a complete understanding of the intricacies of writing in the Burmese language. However, there are a few Burmese editors who are better positioned to determine the notability of subjects related to our country. It is important to acknowledge that we always act with integrity and honesty. 49.237.13.44 (talk) 20:23, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I resent your suggestion that I have something against Myanmar and the aspersions you throw on my "integrity and honesty". Please comment on the issues, not the persons. See WP:AGF. --Randykitty (talk) 08:58, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
 * - "The State History, Myanmar Chronicles and Historical Values" research symposium was organized in preparation for the release of the latest issue of the Myanmar Historical Research Journal. The event was attended by Burmese culture ministers, prominent historians, members of the Myanmar Historical Commission, and officials from the National Literary sector. The participants discussed their respective research works. Moreover, The Myanmar Historical Research Journal (MHRJ) serves as a reference for the Burmese Encyclopedia, highlighting its importance as a source of information for Burmese history.  49.237.13.44 (talk) 20:43, 12 April 2023 (UTC)


 * I just found the book review by Naypyidaw National Library that highlights the significance of the Myanmar Historical Research Journal (MHRJ) in the field of Burmese history. The Department of Historical Research and National Library has been publishing Burmese historical research bulletins since 1995, and the MHRJ is featured in the bulletins numbered 36, 37, and 38. These bulletins contain research papers by prominent Myanmar historians as well as teachers and researchers from history and archeology departments across the country. The papers cover various eras, politics, and the economy, making the MHRJ an important legacy resource for scholars of Burmese history. See source by Myanmar Digital Newspaper. In the source, The Naypyidaw National Library provides book reviews for numerous legacy Burmese books. 49.237.13.44 (talk) 21:03, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but none of those sources is about the journal and they don't show notability. --Randykitty (talk) 08:58, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Ummm! What the hell? The sources I posted above, are they not valid? Pls tell me what is your problem?? 49.237.43.169 (talk) 12:46, 17 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep per 's detailed, well-documented reasons. Just because something is not easily searchable on Google doesn't mean it's not noteworthy. Likewise with ISBN or ISSNs or being included in WorldCat. But this isn't the first time and won't be the last. Someone challenged the Rakhine Razawin Thit article back in 2014 -- see the Talk page. Hybernator (talk) 03:27, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment. I absolutely disagree with the last two "keep" !votes. Yes, "just because it is not extensively referenced online, or is not written in English does not automatically preclude the subject from notability". And, yes, "Just because something is not easily searchable on Google doesn't mean it's not noteworthy". However, even in those cases, we need sources. Without sources, these assertions are just that: assertions. Just saying that something is notable/respected/noteworthy/etc does not make it so. --Randykitty (talk) 08:58, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I can die with this comment 🫡😂. Burmese editors have provided sources above. So how much do you need? 49.237.43.169 (talk) 12:49, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
 * You actually have to look at the sources. They're not independent, not about the journal, or just minor mentions. The rest is hand waving.--Randykitty (talk) 13:30, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I share Randy's concerns. At the same time, so many of our other journal articles have the same problems (of course, WP:OTHERSTUFF...). Which is why we have WP:NJOURNAL, but it hard to see how this is met. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 05:23, 18 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge. I don't think this journal is notable enough to warrant a stand-alone article, but I think it could be merged. The quesiton is - where? It has three publishers, according to the article: the Ministry of Religious Affairs and Culture's department of historical research and the National Library of Myanmar and the Myanmar Historical Commission. Although the infobox just lists the Ministry, so if I had to choose, I'd go with that one? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 05:25, 18 April 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.