Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mykayla Skinner


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. To stay with the terminology, WP:GNG is the senior guideline and with the latest references the subject clearly meets the general notability criteria. — Preceding unsigned comment added by De728631 (talk • contribs)

Mykayla Skinner

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

She fails WP:NGYMNASTICS. GAtechnical (talk) 10:25, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete for now. Though Skinner has reached senior status at a young age, she hasn't competed (or achieved) at the highest level required to meet WP:NGYMNASTICS criteria. Neither has she had sufficient news coverage (apart from a student article) to meet WP:GNG. In fact this article is based largely on a copy-paste of a failed AfC draft. Sionk (talk) 11:33, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

1. She does meet general notability. For instance winning the American Classic as a junior. There is no requirement to be a senior when doing so (for general notability). For that matter being a US National team member is general notability. She also had at least two press pieces where she was the headliner. See here and here
 * Keep.

2. The Ngymnastics was created without any significant input from Wikiproject gymnastics (which is dead). That criteria is way too restrictive and not comparable to us allowing every minor soccer player to have a bio. I disagreed with the policy when created and was the only person writing gym articles who commented at all on that policy (it was written by someone who does not write gym articles).

3. I started the article without even knowing about the failed AFC (see history) so it was an independent judgment from an experienced content creator to start this article. The only reason for pasting in that AFC content (once found) was that it was such good addition. Note, that the delete voter is the one who failed the AFC, and that I had pasted on the talk page of the attempted creater that they had had good content.

4. Take a look at this youtube as well. And puh-leeze...I am NOT saying citing youtube from Dad is OK. But if that interview and footage was broadcasted as a news story, I could cite the broadcast itself (even if it is not a web viewable source...) [It was broadcast by NBC in Arizona and the clip is on the web and can be referenced now.] Oh...and first in the world, peeps! Girl is going to be the next McKayla Maroney [be impressed ;-)]. You heard it here first.  ;-)

TCO (talk) 14:03, 14 February 2013 (UTC)


 * FYI four of the six criteria of WP:NGYMNASTICS require success at senior level. This is consistent with other sports notability criteria, which generally discount junior sportspeople. As for the USA Gymnastics website, its purpose is to record US gymnastics. The fact Skinner has a page there is hardly proof of her general notability. Sionk (talk) 19:30, 14 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't agree with that notability GUIDELINE and it was drafted without ANY input from people who watch gymnastics or write Wiki gym articles. The average person here thinks all the Albanian house league soccer players and all the Arena League benchwarmers are inherently notable.  That is because they are male in into football/soccer.  But they don't realize that women's gym is covered nationally by NBC (heavy female audience).  Skinner was on NBC national TV when she won the 2011 American Classic.


 * USAG only has bios for the top people (national team members are a dozen or so). That is the very top of the pyramid.  There are probably 100,000 girls doing competitive gymnastics.  But they only show the top members.


 * And as far as age, DUH...this is a sport where the participants often perform better younger!


 * TCO (talk) 01:21, 15 February 2013 (UTC)


 * P.s. I really like you...you are a nice guy (serious, I spied you).  So don't take what I say to heart. I am a gnarly ex-permabannee.  Brush off anything I say...you are sweet.


 * P.s.s. Don't make me canvas in the ARS.  (I think canvassing is a silly proscription.)


 * P.s.s.s. I mean...I just did an article on Victor Wallace Germains...and intrinsically Skinner is way more Q-factor than that dude.  But you know his bio will stay.  (Should I nom my own creation to be pointy?  could be a fun troll.)
 * Based on your comment about women's gym, is it worth notifying WikiProject Women's sport about this?  Zappa  O  Mati   06:26, 22 February 2013 (UTC)


 * keep meets wp:gng: coverage in arizona republic ; east valley tribune ; passing coverage in examiner [www.examiner.com/article/routine-of-the-day-mckayla-skinner-makes-history]; [www.examiner.com/article/but-wait-there-s-more-from-mykayla-skinner?cid=PROD-redesign-right-next]; in addition to The Universe. spread. what would be the point of deleting an article, to just create it when she makes Olympic team? to validate rules? how very pointy. Farmbrough's revenge ⇔ †@1₭ 03:10, 15 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks man...and the lady who does the gymnastics examiner is very professional (a stringer for the Seattle Times). Cut above your average Examiner.  Also, there is Gymnastike...which is now part of a paid site covering gym, track and field, etc.  With full time paid employees doing the reporting (kid you not).TCO (talk) 04:49, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
 * @Farmbrough's revenge, there was no intent to be pointy when I nominated the article. GAtechnical (talk) 12:35, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
 * ok fine, i'm more into the Teleological rather than Deontological. i'm not a big fan of nominating an article minutes after creation of an experienced editor with no wp:before. but then that's the toxic culture we have isn't it? WP:SNOW? Farmbrough's revenge ⇔ †@1₭ 04:18, 17 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep Sources available meets general notability(WP:GNG). WP:NGYMNASTICS is notability criteria that an article can meet instead of WP:GNG not as well as. This is made clear in WP:GNG. Quote "A topic is also presumed notable if it meets the criteria outlined in a subject-specific guideline listed in the box on the right." Regards, Sun Creator(talk) 20:48, 15 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment: Am finding a few more nuggets of notability.  She had a headlined article in Huffington Post Teen (a rerun of the Universe bio, but shows interest from another periodical).  Also an article from the Arizona Republic.  Am adding to article along with some other minor upgrades.TCO (talk) 03:07, 18 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Bronze medalist on vault in 2012 Senior US Nationals. While this is technically "not meeting NGYM" that is just because of how NGYM is incredibly restrictive:  the AA champion is the only person at nationals who gets notability (just one person...while every single Arena League football player is automatically notable!)  Also, I would definitely argue via WP:COMMONSENSE that since the US is the #1 gymnastics power and also the largest part of the Anglosphere, it is pretty darned notable for En-Wiki to get bronze at Visa Championships on an event.TCO (talk) 03:50, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Just sayin', but AFL players are usually notable under WP:NGRIDIRON (unless it's af2), so I don't think the AFL comparison works here. ''' Zappa  O  Mati
 * You are not paying attention to my point. I know the Ns support those different takes.  I am saying the Ns are silly and not consistent.  Those NGRIDIRON or the like are just different things written for different sports.  The Gym one did not even have participation from gymnastics article writers.  You are just pointing to a rule, when I am making the simple point by comparison that the two rules make no sense next to each other.  One is overly permissive and one overly restrictive.TCO (talk) 06:55, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

''' 06:22, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Have to agree with TCO mean the guidelines under N for academics is stupid. From those guidelines if you have a degree and lecture at a Uni then hey, welcome to Wikipedia! Sorry didn't know Wiki was meant to be a database for really not very notable people who will always pass GNG due to the Uni's own website. Feel though that TCO should take this to a talk page somewhere because in my mind it's obvious that some groups are being favoured over others. GAtechnical (talk) 09:13, 22 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm not taking anything "to a talk page". We are right here, babe.  You have slapped a tag and a ticking time bomb to an article I started.  It is inhibiting work being done further.  Instead of looking at the Ns, look at the basic criteria for notability. Sunny already explained to you that those rules are not the only ones that apply.  General notability does also.TCO (talk) 09:27, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
 * You are taking it to talk as you've been whinging like a bitch about it. An AFD will not resolve the clear issues that you have. Or are you just scared that you'll be shouted down? GAtechnical (talk) 09:43, 22 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:56, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Relisted discussion of Mykayla Skinner

 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, J04n(talk page) 11:35, 21 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment - I have taken the liberty of notifying WikiProject Gymnastics about this AfD due to the NGYMNASTICS debate.  Zappa  O  Mati   17:47, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Repeated keep, finding even more main stream media coverage. A websearch shows 47 webpages from The Arizona Republic and Channel 12 News. The Arizona Republic is the number one paper in the state of Arizona with circulation of 300,000+ (the number 16 paper in the USA). Channel 12 is an NBC station with news emphasis and the number 1 or 2 station in Phoenix. It is transmitted statewide. Both properties are owned by Gannet (a huge media conglomerate) and administered together as azcentral.com on the Internet. (Note on geography: Arizona is a state with 6.5 million people, the 15th most populous state of the Union. It's not some western wasteland.)

Here is the websearch for Mykayla Skinner on azcentral.com:. Although there are a few duplicates, there are still so many pieces of solid content that there are more than I can actually use. At least on the first couple screens, the stories are giving her prominent feature, either solely on her or on her as one of a small group of people. Here is an example of Skinner getting 3 minutes of state-wide live TV coverage on the major news channel of Arizona: discussion and performance of the double double layout.

Skinner also had two full length stories in the East Valley Tribune which has a circulation of 100,000. See here:.

There are also some outside Arizona mentions. Small Associated Press mention wrt 2012 US Nationals as well as some other pre 2012 Oly mentions She was in the mix to make that and got press...women's gym is a top billing sport at the Olys. Also coverage breaking for her on the double double layout as well as being a candidate for the 2-girl (from US) American Cup squad in spring 2013, the 4-girl World Championships squad in summer 2013, and for the the 5-girl Olympics squad in 2016. Sources include Gymnastike (a site with full salaried administrators/reporters), the Italian site Olympic Blue (Google treats as "news"), About.com, and Gymnastics Examiner. (Note: these are additional to the already mentioned coverage by The Universe, Huffington Post and USA Gymnastics (the national federation). But really there is enough from just large-sized MSM coverage in Arizona, that I don't see the need to assemble every little straw of defense.

I'm going to be the better man and not get into the "scaredy bitch" flame war.

TCO (talk) 18:53, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
 * You !vote-ed above the relist, you're not supposed to vote again. You can present additional examples why, but adding reams and reams of excess content only serves to annoy the closing administrator when having to render a policy based consensus. Hasteur (talk) 22:14, 22 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I said "repeated keep" to make it clear that it was not a new vote. Most of the above is new things I have found.TCO (talk) 22:44, 22 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete for now. Coverage appears to be concentrated around her hometown, with no substantial mentions in any national or international forum. The only mention within the article of international coverage lacks a citation, "In early 2013, Skinner became the first female to perform a double-twisting double layout on floor exercise". Even if cited, this skill does not demonstrate notability as it was not performed at a world championships nor an Olympic games, and thus the skill is not yet officially recognized by the FIG. --IShadowed (talk) 23:22, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The coverage is state-wide, not home-town. There is also more limited national coverage as well as a single international story (Italy).  The DTDL has several citations (you have to read one to two sentence further down).  Yes, she does not have FIG credit until/unless performed at Worlds or Olys, but this is not the same as lack of notice (clearly she is getting media notice for the skill). — Preceding unsigned comment added by TCO (talk • contribs) 23:38, 22 February 2013
 * State-wide isn't substantial coverage for an senior elite international gymnast, either. The national news articles seem to only mention the fact that she competed at certain meets, and the DTDL won't be specifically tied to her until she performs it at a higher level of competition. --IShadowed (talk) 23:43, 22 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep. I see a breadth of coverage from multiple sources—some international—that show that she meets WP:GNG. —C.Fred (talk) 00:18, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Speedy Keep passes WP:NGYMNASTICS.--Amadscientist (talk) 00:43, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.