Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Myth of Albanian Indifference to Religion


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. There seems clear consensus that it's unsuitable as is, or with normal editing. Possibly a decent article could be written on the subject--I would suggest that anyone who wants to try, pick a less confusing name --at least with respect to  the ordinary English-speaker   DGG ( talk ) 03:22, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Myth of Albanian Indifference to Religion

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The article is a fork of Religion in Albania, Albanian National Awakening, League of Prizren, O moj Shqypni. The title itself is attested only two times as part of a phrase used by author Noel Malcolm in an article. That being said most sections of the article are parts of many different works, whose only common element is that their authors deal with religious aspects in Albanian society. — ZjarriRrethues — talk 17:09, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep. I am involved editor. This is article about myth, his emergence, development and consequences. Not about religion, league, song.... The existence of this myth is explained in numerous sources written by numerous authors. This myth exists and deserves its article.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:26, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Except for it being mentioned as a phrase used in a Noel Malcolm article in few of the sources none of the others deal with the myth of Albanian indifference to religion.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 17:42, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Incorrect. There are numerous sources written by numerous authors explaining this myth. This is not article about phrase but about myth.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:59, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * A section by section analysic reveals that much of the article is a WP:CFORK and source misrepresentation of other subjects. -- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 17:44, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * This is article about myth. A myth which exists and is documented in numerous sources written by numerous scholars. Numerous sources emphasize that this myth is very important and have significant consequences. Therefore it is notable and deserves its article.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:02, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Albania-related deletion discussions.  — • Gene93k (talk) 18:18, 29 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep but change the title to Secularism in Albania . My reasoning is that the title of this article is wrong. The title should be Secularism in Albania as per Secularism in Turkey. In fact, the two have a very strong relationship. It's the same secular nonsense espoused by Ataturk and regularly abused to coverup a multitude of sins.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 18:24, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your support. I think that existing title better corresponds with the subject of the article. That is a myth which exists and which is described mostly like Myth of Albanian Indifference to Religion. It is maybe more clear if I present it within the list of some contemporary scholars who extensively wrote about this myth:


 * 1) Artan Puto, Albanian historian, PHD studies at the European University Institute in the History and Civilization Department. (1999-2003).Title of the thesis “The idea of nation among the Albanian leaders during the National Movement (1878-1912)” :  the myth of the "religious indifference," as Puto points out, "remains among the most resilient ideological constructs.... His paper on the international conference in London was titled: "“The religion of Albanian is Albanianism: a myth or an invention”".
 * 2) Diana Mishkova, Bulgarian historian who in the same work emphasized the above presented sentence about "the myth of the religious indifference" as ideological construct. She teaches Modern and Contemporary Balkan History at the University of Sofia. She has published extensively on comparative nineteenth-century Balkan history, history of nationalism and ethnic relations, modernization of Balkan societies in 19th – 20th centuries, history of modern political ideas. She has been a visiting professor in a number of universities in Europe and the US. Has received scholarships at the European University Institute, Florence, Italy; the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars, Washington, D.C.; Andrew F. Mellon fellow at the Wissenschaftskolleg zu Berlin and the Institut für die Wissenschaften vom Menschen, Vienna; senior fellow and convener for the Sofia Academic Nexus research project. Academic Director of the Balkan Summer University, Plovdiv (1998-2000); member of the Board of Eminent Scholars, Centre for Democracy and Reconciliation in Southeast Europe, Thessaloniki, Greece. She has taught graduate courses at various universities in the Balkans such as the University of Athens, Sabanci University (Istanbul), University of Crete.
 * 3) Cecilie Endersen from University of Oslo, Norway, who extensively writes about this myth as the "Albanianist" myth" becaus as she explained: "A core myth, a basic narrative ... can be labeled as "The religion of the Albanian is Albanianism". This serves as template for other myths and narratives...". She wrote the following works connected with the topic of the article:
 * 4)  "Do not look to church and mosque"? Albania's post-Communist clergy on nation and religion, In Andreas Rathberger (ed.),  Religion und Kultur im albanischsprachigen Südosteuropa.  Peter Lang Publishing Group.  ISBN 9783631602959.  kapittel.  s 233 - 259
 * 5)  Mellom Bosporos og Brussel : diskurser om religion og nasjon i Albania etter ateismen. Nordisk Østforum.  ISSN 0801-7220.  24(4), s 353- 374
 * 6) Religiøse helter og nasjonens fiender: Islamske, ortodokse og katolske voktere av den albanske nasjonen. Chaos. Dansk-norsk tidsskrift for religionhistoriske studier.  ISSN 0108-4453.  47, s 85- 124
 * 7) Tension as Taboo: Albania’s Self-Image as a Heaven of Religious Tolerance, In Tore Ahlbäck (ed.),  Exercising Power: The Role of Religions in Concord and Conflict.  Almqvist & Wiksell.  ISBN 952-12-1811-8.  KAPITTEL.
 * 8) Group of scholars wrote this work:  and stated: Another important myth is weakness of Albanians' religious feelings. Some of the authors are:
 * 9) Prof. Dr. Karl Kaser from the Centre for Southeast European History at the Karl-Franzens University of Graz in Austria, which is scientific institution with a teaching and research focus on the history of Southeast Europe.
 * 10) Dr. Frank Kressing, from the Department for the History, Philosophy, and Ethics of Medicine at Ulm University, Germany.
 * 11) Rajwantee Lakshman-Lepain, a French historian living in Tirana
 * 12) Antonia Young, Honorary Research Fellow. Department of Peace Studies, University of Bradford.
 * 13) Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers studied Balkan Studies and Social Anthropology at Free University of Berlin, specialising on Albanian cultures and society. She has regularly conducted ethnographic research in Albania and Kosovo since 1988. Between 1997 and 2003 she served the School of Slavonic and East European Studies, University College London, as the first Alex Nash Fellow for Albanian Studies. Today she directs a UK registered academic consultancy firm, Anthropology Applied Limited.
 * 14) Nitsiakos Vassilis G., Department of History and Archaeology, University of Ioannina, says precisely: "adopts the myth of religious indifference" in his work which extensively deals with this myth,
 * 15) Noel Malcolm, names the whole chapter as "The myth of indifference to religion" his in work within
 * 1) Noel Malcolm, names the whole chapter as "The myth of indifference to religion" his in work within


 * Delete, tendentious POV essay cobbled together from scraps of semi-plagiarised and ripped-out-of-context material from various sources. The current title ("The myth of...") clearly marks the whole definition of the topic as an agenda essay rather than a genuine, natural encyclopedic topic; whatever is salvageable here could much more naturally be treated in existing articles. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:06, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think this article is POV and I don't agree that this article should be deleted because it maybe has issue you mentioned. The topic of this article is myth. This myth exists and meets notability criteria: Significant coverage of reliable sources who are independent from the subject. I presented reliable sources written by contemporary experts in this field. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:46, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * My personal apologies to Antidiskriminator. It is unlikely that Fut Perf would have made a recommendation here had my shadow not followed me here.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 15:00, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete. This is obviously a content fork but I agree with Fut.Perf. It revolts me to see where the logic of this article would conclude: Albanians are really Islamist radicals who pose a threat to the West. The fact that it is well-researched does not really mean much; David Duke's articles are also well-researched but skewed to some revolting agenda.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 22:51, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for noticing that this myth is well-researched. "A content fork is the creation of multiple separate articles all treating the same subject". There are no other articles which subject is this myth. Content dispute is not valid reason for deletion. This myth exists and is well researched by significant coverage of reliable sources who are independent from the subject.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:01, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Being mentioned in 3 books as a phrase used by Noel Malcolm doesn't indicate significant coverage. That being said all of the other sources deal with content that can be covered in existing articles.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:09, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * This is not an article about the phrase but about myth. This myth is not "being mentioned". This myth is well-researched (Gaius Claudius Nero). The myth exists and is well-researched in numerous reliable sources written by numerous contemporary scholars, like presented in the article. This myth is not only well-researched, but numerous sources emphasize that it is very important and have significant consequences . Therefore it is notable and deserves its article. If you don't like the title of the article about this myth you should propose renaming, not deletion.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:23, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Apart from the few sources that mention the phrase none of the others deals with this myth.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:39, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Incorrect. This myht exists. It is well-researched by numerous contemporary scholars who are specialists in this field. Those works are presented in article about this myth and used as source for its text. Numerous contemporary scholars named the whole works or chapters in their works against this myth.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 05:43, 30 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete, unencyclopedic. Religion in Albania can cover very well the topic in question, provided it is sourced.Majuru (talk) 09:32, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The topic of this article is myth, not religion. There is no other wikipedia article with the same topic, i.e. the article about this myth is not CFORK. This article is not unencyclopedic because it presents summary of information about this well-researched myth. Those information are not invented by any of the wikipedia users. They are published in "reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." (WP:RS) Information published in those sources are written by numerous contemporary scholars and have "been vetted by the scholarly community". This myth exists and has "significant coverage" by "reliable sources" which are "Independent of the subject" (Notability). --Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:58, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
 * These sources deal with religion in Albania and other subjects that have nothing in common with this myth. That being said a phrase that is mentioned in 3 sources as something written by Noel Malcolm in one of his articles doesn't indicate significant coverage. If I removed from that article all the parts that don't deal with the supposed subject it'd be an article without sections.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 10:04, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Incorrect. Artan Puto, Diana Mishkova and Nitsiakos Vassilis G. use the same name for this myth (the myth of the religious indifference) in their works about this myth, not as something written by Noel Malcolm. This myth exists and it is well-researched by numerous authors. They emphasized the importance and significant consequences of this myth. Of this myth, not of the phrase written by Noel Malcolm.
 * Even if Noel Malcolm is author of the name of this myth it is not a reason for deletion of the article about this myth. I will remind you that you should propose renaming if you don't think that the name of the article about this myth is appropriate. Disputes about the name of the article are not reason for deletion of the article. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:28, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Nitsiakos: N. Malkolm, in his article Myths of Albanian national identity (2002] defines "indifference to religion" as one of the basic myths.... The sources mention it as a phrase used by Noel Malcolm and then deal with their own subjects regarding religion in Albania etc.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 10:38, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Nitskiakos use the same term "myth of religious indifference" not as something Malcolm mentioned, but as name for this myth, a myth addopted by the communist regime in Albania ("The regime...adopts the myth of religious indifference", p. 212). The fact that Nitskiakos uses the name for this myth given by Malcolm, does not mean that it does not exist. In his work he researched the myth, not its name. Regarding the other sources used in this article, I can only emphasize what other user wrote, they well-researched this myth.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:45, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete; The Article is a one-of-a-kind opinion piece on Wikipedia, and all of the information can be accomodated at Religion in Albania, etc. Myth of Skanderbeg should also go IMHO, Wikipedia is not a journal for people to publisht their opinions on (It can easily be merged into Skenderbeg). Lunch for Two (talk) 15:06, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I did not publish my opinion. Everything I wrote in this article is supported with sources written by authors who are contemporary scholars and experts in this subject. They well-researched this myth which meets notability requests and deserves its article.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:24, 30 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep. This is well known historical fact about the Albanians and their national psychology. The article is well sourced. Jingby (talk) 19:31, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete Religion in Albania can cover the topic in question --79.106.109.77 (talk) 20:26, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete, encyclopedic aspects can, as noted, be merged into Religion in Albania; otherwise it's an essay that has no place here. Daniel Case (talk) 02:34, 1 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete as per Fut.Perf, Majuru, Lunch for Two and Daniel Case. Stuartyeates (talk) 09:37, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.