Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/N. H. Skyles


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Userfy to User:Paulmcdonald/Skyles. –  Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 03:52, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

N. H. Skyles

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Tagged for notability for over four years. Prod removed by article creator with reference to a notability essay which has never made it to guideline as it is way too permissive and not in line with our generally accepted notability standards.

No evidence that this college football coach meets WP:BIO in any way or shape. Included in football databases and mentioned in some other sources, but hasn't received any indepth attention from reliable, independent sources. I could e.g. find nothing in Google Books, not even a mention of him (excluding Wikipedia mirrors). Probably some variation on the search will result in some mention somewhere, but as long as it isn't significant attention, I don't believe we should have an article on him. Fram (talk) 13:23, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. Paul McDonald (talk) 14:00, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

As for WP:NCOLLATH, please read it carefully:
 * Keep being "tagged for notability" is not a reason to delete. Having the PROD removed by the article creator (me) is also not a reason to delete.  The only real argument to delete is that no indepth attention from reliable indepenedent sources is found online.  It should not be shocking that such sources are not found online for a head college football coach from 1893.  As to the significance of the program, it would be another 15 or so years before the NCAA would begin, 27 years before the National Football League--this was the highest level of the sport at the time.  We have confirmed that the coach did exist, was the head coach, and the win-loss record.  We can also confirm the basic statistics of games for the season -- we have data on the coach.  This puts the subject past the threshhold established in WP:SPORTCRIT: "participated in a major international amateur or professional competition at the highest level..."  There is no deadline, let Wikipedia work and offline sources will be found. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paulmcdonald (talk • contribs) 14:22, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Selective quotation much? You just happened to omit the last few words of that line from SPORTCRIT: "participated in a major international amateur or professional competition at the highest level (such as the Olympics)." College football in 1893 is not comparable to something like the Olympics by any stretch of the imagination. College football in 1893 was, as far as I'm aware, not even an international competition, so even your abridged quote doesn't apply to this article. In fact, they played seven games, six of them in Pennsylvania, one in Maryland. It can hardly be even called a national competition at this stage in time. Fram (talk) 14:37, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I did not intentionally leave off anything that I felt would be of importance, but thanks for brining up the Olympics. It would be another three years before the first modern Olympiad at the 1896 Summer Olympics.  I didn't include the Olympics because in 1893 there were no Olympics and it would be another year before the International Olympic Committee would even form.  As for college football being international (if that matters) the List of college football games played outside the United States may be a helpful reference.--Paul McDonald (talk) 15:39, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
 * The Olympics are an important part of that quote as they indicate the kind of event that sentence is meant to be about. Two-state college football games are not really comparable. And there were international games, great, but Skyles (or even his team) wasn't in any of them as player or coach, so again, that line doesn't apply to him. You have a very long discussion with Dirtlawyer1 about the status of SPORTCRIT, but that is totally irrelevant: Skyles doesn't meet SPORTCRIT in whatever interpretation you want to give it. Fram (talk) 06:42, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't know where the two state universities comment comes from, this is a coach at one private school. Maybe you were talking about the other programs that they played were only from two states?  The landscape of college football was very different in 1893, and several of the articles discovered and added since the AFD can help show that.  In 1893, the coverage of even one game by this program is greater than the coverage of the modern Olympics at the time because they hadn't been formed yet.--Paul McDonald (talk) 13:59, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
 * He coached in seven games, six in Pennsylvania, one in Maryland. That's two states, so not even a national competition, never mind international. The sources added to the article are passing mentions, nothing substantial, in local newspapers. They do nothing to establish notability for Skyles (and the first note is speculation ahnd has no place in an encyclopedia). The rest of your reply really doesn't do you any credit. Fram (talk) 14:25, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Your personal opinion of me is not a reason to delete the article. That the competitions took place within two geographic states does not mean that they were not notable either.--Paul McDonald (talk) 14:59, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't think I haev implied anywhere that my opinion of you (or more precisely, of some replies you made here) is a reason to delete anything. I have given clear, policy-based reasons for deletion. You have invoked a notability guideline that clearly isn't applicable in this case, and otherwise made largely irrelevant or hard-to-follow replies. If you want to keep this biography, simply provide us with the sources that show the notability of this person. Fram (talk) 07:37, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
 * "The rest of your reply really doesn't do you any credit." that's called a "personal attack" -- and irrelevant. I could be a raving lunatic, but that doesn't make the argument invalid.--Paul McDonald (talk) 14:28, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
 * ? That sentence means the exact opposite of what you are reading into it. "That reply doesn't do you any credit" = "I hadn't expected that reply from you, I expected better arguments". I know that you are well capable of rational, balanced arguments based on evidence, but in this case these things were missing. That's not a personal attack, that's a comment on the merits of 'part of) one reply and an indication that I don't consider this typical of you. That these got more attention in 1893 than the 1896 Olympics (not yet planned) or the sinking of the Titanic did (as the Titanic wasn't even built yet) is a total non-argument. The question is: got this event (when it happened in 1893 and afterwards) anything comparable to the attention another event like the Olympics got (when it happened, and afterwards)? The answer obviously is no. Fram (talk) 14:40, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment - I have no idea whether Skyles is notable or not, as I have not run the first Google search about him. However, WP:SPORTCRIT is not a separate specific notability guideline under WP:NSPORTS; SPORTCRIT is a description, with an example (i.e., Olympic athletes), of what probably would satisfy the general notability guidelines per GNG, and thus perhaps qualify for inclusion in WP:NSPORTS as a separate specific notability guideline (after discussion and adoption by consensus).  Please note that college football already has a specific notability guideline, WP:NCOLLATH, and that is the specific notability guideline that applies here.  If the subject does not satisfy the NCOLLATH criteria, the subject may, in the alternative, satisfy the GNG criteria directly.  Selah.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:13, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Respone WP:SPORTCRIT is the shortcut to what is listed on that page as "Basic criteria" --Paul McDonald (talk) 17:05, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, Paul, I know: it's the basic criteria for inclusion as a specific notability guideline for sports, with an example. Otherwise, only athletes (not coaches) who competed in the Olympics and similar international championships would be eligible.  You have to read it in context, and in its entirety.  SPORTCRIT is not a separate guideline.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:14, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Are we defining college coaches as college athletes? If so, then NCOLLATH would be a good criteria.  I never said SPORTCRIT is a separate guideline, it is simply a shortcut to a different place on the same page that covers the basic criteria.--Paul McDonald (talk) 20:02, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Paul, WP:SPORTCRIT is not a "short cut" to anything; it recites the GNG standard that is generally applicable to sportspersons (and, indeed, to all persons), and then provides an example of a category of sportspersons (Olympic athletes and other world champions) who, as a class, are likely to satisfy GNG, and therefore be strong candidates, as a class, for a specific notability guideline under WP:NSPORTS. Beyond that SPORTCRIT discusses the types of coverage that do and do not satisfy the GNG criteria.  Beyond reciting the GNG criteria, SPORTCRIT is not a notability guideline.  Citing SPORTCRIT in an AfD makes no sense, unless you are doing so to also reference the GNG notability criteria that SPORTCRIT references.
 * "College athletes and coaches are notable if they have been the subject of non-trivial media coverage beyond merely a repeating of their statistics, mentions in game summaries, or other WP:ROUTINE coverage. Examples would include head coaches, well-known assistant coaches, or players who:
 * "Have won a national award (such as those listed in Template:College Football Awards or the equivalent in another sport), or established a major Division I (NCAA) record.
 * "Were inducted into the hall of fame in their sport (for example, the College Football Hall of Fame).
 * "Gained national media attention as an individual, not just as a player for a notable team."

Please note that college coaches are specifically included under NCOLLATH (bolded/italicized emphasis is mine). If a college athlete or coach does not satisfy the NCOLLATH criteria (and most don't), then the subject may still satisfy the GNG criteria (as recited by SPORTCRIT) with significant coverage in multiple, independent, reliable sources, etc., and virtually all modern Division I-A/FBS football coaches do. Bottom line: Skyles probably needs to satisfy GNG, because it does not appear that he is covered by any of the NCOLLATH criteria. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:20, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Why do you say WP:SPORTCRIT is not a shortcut? Click on it.  It takes you to the page Notability (sports), a basic notability guideline.  It's a shortcut, by definition--to highlight section 2: Basic criteria.--Paul McDonald (talk) 20:33, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
 * We're now talking about two different meanings of "short cut"; as you are using it, clearly it is a link or short cut to the section. It is not, however, a short cut to notability under NSPORT.  As I have explained at length above, SPORTCRIT recites the GNG standard, as does WP:BASIC.  That's not an accident; in the absence of an applicable NSPORTS specific notability guideline, such as NCOLLATH, the athlete or coach must satisfy the GNG criteria.  Indeed, all NSPORTS specific notability guidelines are supposed to be based on the assumption that the overwhelming majority of persons who would satisfy the specific notability guideline would also satisfy a full GNG analysis.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:46, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
 * What meaning of "short cut" were you using?--Paul McDonald (talk) 20:51, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
 * SPORTCRIT "is not, however, a short cut to notability under NSPORT." Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:12, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Sure it is. Click on it.  Second section "Basic Criteria".--Paul McDonald (talk) 21:38, 19 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Merge and redirect to Franklin_%26_Marshall_College. NewYorkActuary (talk) 21:49, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Pennsylvania-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:48, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:48, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — ☮ JAaron95  Talk   18:30, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

*Keep Based on the age and the fact that something reputable about them is actually found on the internet. This does need a better write up, however, anyone interest in going to a library? Mines incredibly tiny See below! -- MurderByDeadcopy  "bang!"  17:52, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment #1 There is some issues that need to be fixed in this article. The article states N.H Skyles played football and was captain of Franklin and Marshall.  According to F&M the captain was E. P. Skiles not N. H.   Also According to  F&M the coach was just listed as Skyles.  I think there is some confusion on who the coach is. As far as I can tell none of the Reference listed in the article state the first name of the coach (or captain or player) of F&M 1893 team.  The newspaper articles just list his last name.  Even College Football Data Warehouse list the coach as “Coach Skyles.”    I  found in   “Religious Leaders of America, Volume 1”  that Rev. N.H. Skyles son was named Eugene Pierre Skyles and was born in 1870 and went to F&M.   This fits with the time line on being the captain of the team.  Either E.P. was both the coach and captain in 1893 (common for the time) or his Father (N.H.) coached his son.  According to this N.H. was living in Jeanette, PA which was clear across the state.  But once again this was not unheard of in a era when the coach was basically a part time job.  One other option is that there is another N.H. Skyles.09er (talk) 07:58, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment #2 As for N. H. Skyles … When I did a google book search I came across the book “The History of the Reformed Church in Virginia, 1714-1940” by Jay Silor Garrison.  In the Google snippet of text from the book it says the following:  “N. H. Skyles was born at Martinsburg, Blair County, Pa., June 22nd, 1837, and departed this life December 31st, 1918. His age was 81 years, 5 months and 8 days. He entered Franklin and Marshall College in the year 1856, and was ...”  This sounds like a start of a good biography.  Unfortunately it is only snippets so I do not know if it meet the GNG.  My recommendation is for someone interested in this person to get a hold of this book through an inter-library loan and see if this is as complete of a biography as it looks from 3 lines.   Also there seems to be a lot of  Google book hits if you use Rev. N. H. Skyles. If this same guy I am thinking his time football coach is minor part of his life (if he was actually the coach).   If someone is interested to get a hold of the many books that google shows you only a snippet he could pass GNG.  09er (talk) 08:05, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Response I think you're on to something there. I originally put this article together years ago, and none of the sources as I see them today support "N H" in the name.  They could have changed and been corrected, or I could have made an error.  Issues such as these are editing issues, not deletion issues.  Let's fix it.--Paul McDonald (talk) 14:52, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Agreed, but what is the best way of doing this. Until we find out who actually coached F&M in 1893 I think it wise that we userfy the article.  Once we have the right person as coach we can bring it back.    From what I read in google book snippets there is probably is enough to make a case for meeting GNG for  both N. H. and E.P.  I have edited a lot of coaches from this era and a lot of times the problem is not finding enough independent 3rd party sources but getting a hold of those articles and books.  09er (talk) 19:50, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Userfy? Is that some sort of hiding of the article 'til someone gets around to doing a write-up? Just curious since I do believe you are onto something here. -- MurderByDeadcopy  "bang!"  07:34, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * WP:USERFY  Basically the article is moved to a sub-page of an users page. It is not indexed so it will not show up in search engines.  Once we find a source that states it was N.H or E..P. we can add the additional sources I found.  Then we can bring it back.  If Paul does not want to take it on I will take it.09er (talk) 12:06, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the info! -- MurderByDeadcopy  "bang!"  17:30, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 12:50, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Userfy - per comments above by 09er, until it can be cleared up what this person's role was on the team, the page shouldn't be listed with a fundamental error like that. Article can be improved and then reposted. If not, I'd suggest a merge to Franklin & Marshall athletics. Not clear why it needs its own article right now. FuriouslySerene (talk) 15:28, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * If that's the decision, I offer to host the userfied page at User:Paulmcdonald\Skyles. Is "userfied" a word?--Paul McDonald (talk) 16:57, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Userfy This needs a rewrite + an accuracy check! -- MurderByDeadcopy  "bang!"  17:30, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete and Userfy to User:Paulmcdonald\Skyles per my comments above. 09er (talk) 14:49, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment if Delete is the result, I would prefer redirect to List of Franklin & Marshall Diplomats head football coaches.--Paul McDonald (talk) 15:41, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Userfy to User:Paulmcdonald\Skyles without prejudice to article recreation after sourcing is sorted out, including determining the correct first name of the coach. FWIW, here is an obituary or Eugene P. Skyles, a F&M alum born in 1870 in Woodstock, NY. From what I glean from an F&M yearbook, "Eugene Pierre Skyles" is probably the "skyles" in question. The book here also has some biographical information on Eugene. Cbl62 (talk) 06:44, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Userfy and move on. For the record, I will note that any "new and improved" version of this article which is returned to article space will need to demonstrate the subject's notability per the general notability guidelines, which has not been done in this AfD.  The issues here go way beyond simply establishing what the subject's correct initials and/or first name are, but the failure to even establish the subject's name is certainly a top-5 warning sign that the subject will probably fail critical notability analysis.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:07, 12 November 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.