Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/NZXT (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus.  Sandstein  09:04, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

NZXT
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A couple of product reviews, but fails WP:ORGDEPTH. Deleted several times before. Jayjg (talk) 18:19, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. Jayjg (talk) 18:19, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Technology-related deletion discussions. Jayjg (talk) 18:19, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Computing-related deletion discussions. Jayjg (talk) 18:19, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. Jayjg (talk) 18:19, 16 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep - Articles like Cooler Master, Thermaltake, Antec, and Fractal Design are not any more notable but have no problem being kept up. I did a quick Google search too, and found plenty that weren't reviews. Saucy[talk – contribs] 02:44, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Sure, a majority of the search results are reviews, but in my opinion many of them meet WP:PRODUCTREV anyway. Saucy[talk – contribs] 02:49, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment "The nature of Wikipedia means that you cannot make a convincing argument based solely on what other articles do or do not exist, because there is nothing stopping anyone from creating any article . . . " See WP:OtherStuffExists. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 21:46, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Well in that case it would only make sense to nominate those articles for deletion too. Saucy[talk – contribs] 03:27, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Randykitty (talk) 18:21, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete - Fails ORGDEPTH. It seems we keep having to address this company being re-added, too.  Orville1974  (talk) 20:11, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment Google News results, there's plenty of articles that aren't reviews Saucy[talk – contribs] 03:27, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
 * What are these articles, if not product reviews? Ads? Do they actually describe the company in any depth? Jayjg (talk) 14:38, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
 * After thinking about it, Delete. None of the sources talks about this organization as a company. They are reviewing its products. If this outfit was WP:Notable, then some WP:Reliable source would say so. None has. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 03:36, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.    <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> </ol>

<ol> <li> The article notes: "NZXT is best known for its computer cases and other gear, though it may have aspirations of branching out beyond PC hardware. The company announced it is acquiring Forge, makers of a free app for capturing and sharing gameplay videos, and we have to wonder if NZXT is up to something with its CAM utility. The announcement is big on hype and short on details. NZXT mentions it is a proponent of the 'smart PC' through integrated software, which is what its CAM software provides, but stops short of saying how Forge ties into it all. ... Outside of CAM, NZXT has mostly been involved on the hardware side of things. There was a time when NZXT made some garish cases, like the Nemesis Elite, but it has grown and adapted with the market over the years. These days it constructs some downright excellent enclosures, and offers cooling products and power supplies as well. More recently, it unveiled its first (and so far only) motherboard, the N7 Z370 with a customizable color scheme."</li> <li> The article notes: "NZXT is famous for its PC cases and related accessories (such as cooling solutions), but the US-based manufacturer has just kicked off a new project offering custom-built gaming PCs with a newbie-friendly approach to picking components. ... So, with NZXT BLD (yes, its phobia of vowels continues), the company is introducing an entirely new approach to a PC build. You simply pick out your favorite games (presumably the ones you want to play on the new rig) from a list, stipulate your budget, and NZXT will recommend one of its machines."</li> <li> The article notes: "When new employees start at NZXT, they build the PC they're going to use at work. Some get a little help from a build-savvy coworker, but it's a spirit I appreciate: it's obvious, from talking to founder & CEO Johnny Hou, that building your own PC is as big a deal for NZXT as it is for us. But not everyone has the time to research what they should buy and how best to build. For them, NZXT has come up with a new way to order a custom-built PC, called BLD, that puts games first. Instead of picking a system build based on name, or size, or components you know you want, you pick the games you want to play. BLD, which launches today, is built on top of years of game performance data collected by NZXT's CAM software. The idea is that you pick a popular game, like The Witcher 3 or League of Legends, then pick an approximate price point, and BLD puts together a system for you, with a guarantee that you'll hit a certain framerate within 10 percent."</li> <li> The article notes: "NZXT is best known for its line of computer cases, and less so for its power supplies, of which it hasn't released a new model since 2016. That changes today. NZXT is rolling out a new digital PSU line, and like some of its coolers and lighting products, the new PSUs offer real-time power monitoring and control through the company's CAM software. The company has been aggressively promoting its CAM utility for a long while now, so it's no surprise that its newest E Series PSUs are part of that ecosystem. Through CAM, users can monitor their PSU's temps, total power-on hours, and even multi-rail over-current protection (OCP)."</li> <li> The article notes: "Adventurous questing and fierce battles are much easier when a player has good weapons on both sides of the screen. Made with the needs of videogame fans in mind, the Avatar mouse from NZXT comes with seven programmable buttons that can be custom-configured for different types of games, including multiplayer online worlds, real-time strategy contests and first-person shooters."</li> <li> The article notes: "NZXT is a popular PC desktop case vendor, but the California-based company recently had to raise its prices. The reason? The new US tariffs on Chinese imports includes PC cases. In September, the Trump administration imposed the 10 percent duty, which also cover motherboards, graphics cards, and CPU coolers from the country. As a result, NZXT had to introduce a 10 percent price increase on PC cases to deal with the added costs, VP Jim Carlton told PCMag in an interview."</li> <li> The article notes: "NZXT has combined its powers with Blizzard Entertainment to create a special edition case from its popular H500 model, one of the best PC cases, just in time for the current Overwatch League season. Aside from the aesthetics, not much is different about the actual case design. It comes in a black, white, and orange color combination, and both the front of the case and the side are adorned with the Overwatch logo, while the entire Overwatch name is also on the side of the case. ... This isn't the first time NZXT has paired up with a company to release a game-themed chassis or accessory. NZXT released a limited Nuka Cola Fallout 4 edition case for the H700, and who could forget about the limited edition PUBG magnetic Pan Puck released over the holidays?"</li> <li> The article notes: "As PC hardware companies go, NZXT has been pretty successful in recent years. Its cases rarely if ever disappoint and usually sport modern, even groundbreaking features while it also offers some of the best all-in-one liquid coolers too. We caught up with its founder, Johnny Hou, about the company's past, present and future and also its most successful products."</li> <li> The article notes: "NZXT has created some of our favorite PC cases over the years and has certainly developed a reputation as one of the few innovators in the space. But you’d probably never know that if you saw the very first case company founder Johnny Hou designed, the NZXT Guardian. The Gundam-like monstrosity featured glowing LED eyes and a red power LED shaped like a crystal. Even better, it came in a rainbow of colors including orange, yellow and even green. While it looks absolutely ridiculous now, things were a bit different in 2003 when it was made."</li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> </ol>

There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow NZXT to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 11:02, 26 May 2019 (UTC)</li></ul>
 * Summary post PC Magazine called NZXT "a popular PC desktop case vendor". TechRadar called NZXT "famous for its PC cases and related accessories (such as cooling solutions)". PC Gamer noted that NZXT "is best known for its line of computer cases, and less so for its power supplies" and that NZXT "developed a reputation as one of the few innovators in the space" of PC cases. Bit-Tech said, "As PC hardware companies go, NZXT has been pretty successful in recent years." It further noted that NZXT "cases rarely if ever disappoint and usually sport modern, even groundbreaking features while it also offers some of the best all-in-one liquid coolers too". The sources note that the company is California-based, was founded in 2004 by Johnny Hou, acquired gameplay video app maker Forge in 2018, collaborated with Blizzard Entertainment to create a special PC case for OverWatch, and collaborated with other companies to create special PC cases for the video games Fallout. Cunard (talk) 11:02, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 00:11, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
 * DELETE - Fails in WP:CORPDEPTH. As others have pointed out, there is much trivial and routine coverage, e.g. 'case manufacturer releases case', but these are explicitly listed as not being significant coverage — because what else would they do? The issue isn't verifiability, which is what most of the 'keep' references are related to, it's that the company lacks notability. ogenstein (talk) 07:37, 30 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete: fails WP:NCORP / WP:CORPDEPTH. SOurces offered above are passing mentions and / or WP:SPIP. --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:00, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete Fails WP:ORGIND and WP:CORPDEPTH. Run of the mill, business news, reviews and passing mentions of dubious notability.  scope_creep Talk  08:42, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

<ol><li>9to5Mac: "NZXT is well-known in the custom PC world for making quality cases and now motherboards"; </li> <li>PCMag called NZXT "a popular PC desktop case vendor"; </li> <li>VentureBeat called NZXT a "big-name component manufacturer"; </li> <li>Polygon: "PC hardware manufacturer NZXT, best known for their line of cases, power and cooling products..."; </li> <li>AnandTech recently called NZXT a "renowned case and cooling manufacturer"; <li> <li></li> <li></li></ol>
 * Comment More sources:
 * Saucy[talk – contribs] 03:51, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
 * , thank you for posting the additional sources that provide more analysis and commentary about NZXT! Cunard (talk) 06:18, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, the company exists, and it makes products, and those products have been reviewed. That doesn't address the issue of it failing WP:CORPDEPTH, which has been raised by several people commenting here. Jayjg (talk) 13:01, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
 * My summary post below the sources I posted address how the company has received the analysis and commentary required by WP:CORPDEPTH. Cunard (talk) 07:38, 7 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Scope creep wrote and then removed one minute later this comment: "I'm getting a bit annoyed by these source dumps in Afd's User:Cunard, particularly for companies that dont support the effort. It was bad enough that we are now stuck with PureVPN that for the average reader now thinks is a good VPN provider, by a quick glance at the article, when in fact they are absolutely terrible and are known to leak the customers ip/dns addresses, and any quick look at the web will you tell you that. Now that we have the article with a nefarious notability that is less than useful. I admire the fact when your reference research works in others area, where in that instance the work has been truly excellent,and I have relied on it in the past. I think by the addition of these large source dumps within Afd it imposes a kind of constraint on the conversation that wouldn't otherwise be there, and occasionaly it pushes a kind artificial    scope_creep Talk  08:42, 4 June 2019 (UTC)" I am replying here since I was pinged. I wrote at Articles for deletion/PureVPN: "Why am I supporting retention? I believe there is value to the readers in providing an article that summarizes sources explaining how PureVPN is subpar." An editor replied, "But no version of this article, either now or when it was rather longer at the start of April, has 'explained how PureVPN is subpar'. Instead it has all been anodyne corporate woffle." After the AfD closed, to address these concerns I rewrote the PureVPN article to summarize the negative coverage I found. The article's lead says, "The service has been criticized for having inconsistent speeds, being unable to access Netflix videos, and having usability problems." The PureVPN Wikipedia article contains plenty of negative coverage and criticism. It is unlikely that "the average reader now thinks is a good VPN provider" after a "quick glance" at the lead or after reading the article. Thank you for your kind words regarding "I admire the fact when your reference research works in others area, where in that instance the work has been truly excellent,and I have relied on it in the past.". During my research for this AfD, I found 25 reliable sources about what NZXT has done and created. I posted my findings here with a collapsed box containing relevant quotes from the articles. How does posting the 25 sources I found "impos[e] a kind of constraint on the conversation that wouldn't otherwise be there"? It is clear from the article titles that they are about NZXT's work. I posted these sources to show that NZXT has received sustained analysis from multiple independent reliable sources about what it has done and created. Dismissing the sustained coverage from these independent reliable sources as being "Run of the mill" or "business news" or "reviews" is not a strong argument for deletion. Cunard (talk) 06:18, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I removed that comment as I thought it was unsuitable and not really called for, as I think reference dumps are a net positive. I never even realised it was posted until I saw it the revision history and removed it accordingly. It must have fired off an event.  scope_creep Talk  11:24, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you for reconsidering your position about "reference dumps" and finding these lists of sources to be a net positive. Cunard (talk) 07:38, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: This needs a bit more discussion of Saucy's sources

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 09:15, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep - this article has reliable sources. CryptoWriter[''talk 12:52, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment That's a teeny part of the overall criteria for establishing notability. The sources also have to be about the company, in-depth, significant, independent, etc. Can you point to a reference that meets the criteria? <b style="font-family: Courier; color: darkgreen;"> HighKing</b>++ 11:06, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep. Meets WP:CORP in light of WP:PRODUCTREV. The listed reviews (particularly the ones from reliable sources PC Magazine and PC Gamer) are in-depth, and not the trivial/routine pieces excluded by WP:CORPDEPTH. —  Newslinger  talk   02:52, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment *If* the article was about a *product*, then you'd be correct. The guidelines in WP:NCORP are for either organizations *or* products/services. The article is written about the company and not about any specific product/service, therefore the criteria for product notability doesn't apply. <b style="font-family: Courier; color: darkgreen;"> HighKing</b>++ 11:06, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
 * NZXT is a company with multiple similar products that have individually received in-depth coverage from independent reliable sources. Under WP:OVERLAP, the articles for these products should be merged into a single article, and NZXT is the most appropriate location for that article. Here, an article on the company (i.e. brand) becomes a broad-concept article under WP:DABCONBRAND, with the articles on the individual products subsequently being merged into the article on the company under WP:PRODUCT and WP:OVERLAP. —  Newslinger  talk   08:26, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
 * The starting point for an article on NZXT is whether the company is notable or not. Your argument that all their products are notable and therefore should be merged under an NZXT banner is not supported by any of the guidelines you've pointed to. WP:PRODUCT starts by saying - If a company is notable .... Well - that's what we're trying to reach a consensus on here and as it stands, there aren't two references that meet the criteria for notability and therefore this topic doesn't pass the notability guidelines. WP:OVERLAP comes into play if there is a large overlap between articles and WP:DABCONBRAND uses the example of the "Microsoft Lumia" phone (and all its versions). My suggestion is closer to this idea - an article on "NZXT Keyboards" which discusses the products (keyboards) and I believe that should pass the notability guidelines even if editors apply a strict view of them. <b style="font-family: Courier; color: darkgreen;"> HighKing</b>++ 15:30, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Would you really rather have separate articles on NZXT computer cases, NZXT CPU coolers, etc., instead of a single NZXT article? The article can be titled NZXT products or even List of NZXT products instead of NZXT, but I don't think it makes a material difference. —  Newslinger  talk   17:08, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
 * AFAIK there's different guidelines for "List" articles so that might work. <b style="font-family: Courier; color: darkgreen;"> HighKing</b>++ 19:18, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
 * WP:LISTN does appear to be satisfied by 's and 's sources in this instance. If renaming and rescoping the article would clear the notability issue, then I'll support these changes as an alternative to deletion. —  Newslinger  talk   01:49, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
 * While I definitely prefer this to deleting the article outright, it wouldn't really make sense from a reader's perspective. Why would one need a "List of NZXT products" if they don't even know what NZXT is? To me it would make more sense to the reader to just WP:IAR and have it all under one "NZXT" label. Saucy[talk – contribs] 03:02, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
 * WP:SALLEAD states that stand-alone list articles should have a lead section, which in this case should give a brief description of the company. Since there is less coverage focusing on the company itself, the lead section would be sufficient if we decide to only have a list article. WP:SAL states, "Many stand-alone lists identify their content's format in their titles, beginning with descriptors such as "list of", "timeline of", or similar", but there is no requirement to use "list" in a list article's title. Whether there is an NZXT list article or an NZXT redirect that points to a List of NZXT products article can be determined through a requested move. —  Newslinger  talk   03:22, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete Despite the amount of work by Cunard in finding sources, it appears that the sources are mainly about the products and not about the company itself. There are no sources showing that the company has received significant coverage. The article topic is the company. I believe that should the article be changed so that the topic is one of their better known products, it would likely pass. But this article fails WP:NCORP and GNG. <b style="font-family: Courier; color: darkgreen;"> HighKing</b>++ 11:06, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'll work on adding a products section. Saucy[talk – contribs] 21:24, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
 * That isn't the solution. If the article topic is the company, the starting point is to see if the company is notable. Adding a products section doesn't make it notable. <b style="font-family: Courier; color: darkgreen;"> HighKing</b>++ 15:30, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I elaborated on the products section with 20 additional sources. But I just want to say, HighKing, it would seem very counter-intuitive and inefficient to have an article on each of their products but not one on the company itself. Saucy[talk – contribs] 05:17, 11 June 2019 (UTC)


 * To comment on the point about having products but no company in WP, the problem here is that the company isn't notable and so nobody has written about it (and vice versa). Hopefully this is clear by now. Meanwhile, the gaming PC press has a lot of time on its hands. To properly review gaming equipment (and other stuff as well), a place needs to build a lab because otherwise nobody will take your reviews seriously and worse, no one will advertise on your site. And once you have a lab, you need to keep the assembly line humming or it won't pay for itself, and so an endless stream of very extensive (but mostly meaningless) product reviews follows, replete with accompanying affiliate links. And Wikipedia is WP:NOTCATALOGUE.


 * Obviously, I don't think either the company or any of its products warrant a page. That said, alternatives to deletion are worth considering. Putting the company aside for a moment, it's not like their products are the iPhone or the original IBM PC. Neither the Compaq Portable or DeskPro 386 have their own pages and they're actually significant products with massive effects on a much larger industry (all of personal computing) and the general public as well. NZXT is a small, private peripheral supplier that operates in a niche — providing cases for gaming PCs — with a lot of similar competition. None of their products have made a dent in the world beyond that. Look at the additions meant to improve the page… if the letter 'i' is in the model name then it comes with decorative lighting (did they really call this minimalist design?). This is minutiae, a catalogue and non-encyclopedic.


 * The only public discussion of the products occurs in the review industry press. They seem to be successful in their business but will that ever make the company or their products notable? I don't see it. I think that applies to all of the case makers (as well as other parts suppliers).


 * I'd rather see an article like 'Third-Party PC Cases' or 'Gaming PC Parts' (I'm sure someone could come up with something better) which could discuss the whole sector and could conceivably cover white-label box makers as well — I've read articles which discuss how companies like HP select and purchase cases for the systems they sell and there are countless articles about the PC supply chain. It could include the more significant players in the business (like the four mentioned above), historical moments like when the first gaming PC was released, first third-party case supplier, etc…, including, if someone could dig it up, some facts about each of the companies like when they were founded, when they expanded into international markets, how large they are, or any financial or organizational information. This would save people from a host of stublike pages, take advantage of general articles that don't focus on a specific small company (which are rare), and provide some context that would apply to all of the companies. ogenstein (talk) 07:57, 11 June 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.