Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nasrani Hagbah


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Mark Arsten (talk) 16:08, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Nasrani Hagbah

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 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions.  Cliff  Smith 18:59, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions.  Cliff  Smith 18:59, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Hoax... Google books only return Wikipedia mirrors.--  R a f y  talk 16:15, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Accompanied image and its description is laughable, first of all raising the gospel is found in almost all Christian denominations and is not exclusive to the Saint Thomas Christians. Secondly, since when was the Syriac Peshitta read to a Malayalam speaking congregation?--  R a f y  talk 16:22, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment - I am unsure that it is a hoax but it is definitely a kind of POV fork from Saint Thomas Christians. The creator has been trying to spam their fringe-y "Jewish origin" claims across numerous articles and has been rebuffed at DRN and several other venues (ANI was one, IIRC). - Sitush (talk) 16:25, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 23:30, 26 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete. I can't find a single reference outside of Wikipedia and its mirrors describing any part of Saint Thomas Christian church services as "hagbah", or even drawing a similarity. This article was created by Robin klein, who was recently topic banned for issues stemming from his long push to introduce spurious material into Wikipedia connecting the origins of the Saint Thomas Christians to ancient Jews. Several items here ring false on their face. Most notably, in Jewish ceremonies hagbah is the raising of the Torah before the congregation before or after a reading; this article describes the "Nasrani Hagbah" as part of the Holy Qurbana, i.e. the Eucharist or Holy Communion, which is most certainly not a Jewish ritual. Thomas Christian denominations generally follow the East or West Syrian liturgies, including the Qurbana, and I can find no evidence that they differ on this point. The incomplete citations and the obscurity of most of the works cited makes verification difficult, but I have no confidence that Robin klein interpreted the sources accurately anyway. In my opinion, no option but to delete.--Cúchullain t/ c 00:07, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete I notice many of the article creator's edits are on the Syrian Malabar Nasrani or Saint Thomas Christians. I don't see any WP:RS or almost any sources for this subject. --Artene50 (talk) 03:57, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete. --Woofboy (talk) 07:20, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete. The article is an ideal case of WP:OR with no reliable sources has any mention of anything called Nasrani Hagbah. The author has already been blocked for propaganda stuff like this and the article should be deleted.  AshLey  Msg 09:48, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete - I cannot find any evidence that this article has a basis in sources. I have looked at online versions of several of the books cited in the article (some as full text and some as snippets), and I do not find any indication that they contain the information supposedly obtained from them. --Orlady (talk) 13:36, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The discussion below is copied from User talk:Robin klein --Orlady (talk) 18:56, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Regarding Articles for deletion/Nasrani Hagbah, if you'd like to respond here on your user page I will not treat it as a violation of your topic ban. I'll make your response known at the AfD.--Cúchullain t/ c 16:24, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Dear Cuchullain, The article should be deleted. Having said that the practice of raising of the bible among Nasranis is based on the samaritan/jewish practice of Hagbah. This is discussed in oral Nasrani tradition. However I wrote this using primary sources. So I was wrong as per wikipedia approach of secondary sources. Having said that, the deletion of anything and everything Jewish on the page Saint Thomas Christians just on the basis of mere discussion and without sources is getting out of control. For one the inner altar of the house of worship is indeed Holy of Holies or Sanctum sanctorum in LATIN if that makes it any less jewish. This is basic. There is nothing propaganda about it. My edits were in that regard no different from these deletions. Thanks and with regards Robin klein (talk) 16:59, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.