Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Natalia Toreeva


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. While there is some evidence presented that an appropriate article could be a possibility here, there also is a strong consensus that COI editing has made the current state of the article an unsalvageable mess. I would strongly recommend that if a future article is created, the individual who is the subject of the article stick to participation on and suggestions on the talk page rather than direct article edits. Seraphimblade Talk to me 16:27, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

Natalia Toreeva

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Blatant autobiography of a Russian artist. Has she established her notability? &mdash; RHaworth (talk · contribs) 10:30, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Pinging, who I believe has recently salted the recreation of this article. Muffled    Pocketed  10:38, 30 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete as total tosh. Perhaps tosh is too strong a word; she's undoubtedly an artist, and undoubtedly known within the art-world. But I question her notability beyond that sphere; the sources are comprised primarily of blogs, worldcat, imdb, etc, and fail to demonstrate any long-term, inherent notability, as would be demonstrated by independent sourcing.  Muffled   Pocketed  10:38, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Artists-related deletion discussions. Lemongirl942 (talk) 10:55, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions. Lemongirl942 (talk) 10:55, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. North America1000 11:30, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Visual arts-related deletion discussions. North America1000 11:30, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete - Spending 40 minutes trawling through all those references, including translating some from Ruissian, was worse than hunting Unicorns. None of them provide any realistic support for independent notability. Fails WP:GNG and looks very much like self publicity.  Velella  Velella Talk  12:35, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment. I accepted the AfC, and I think she is notable. There are several references in the article (all in Russian) which demonstrate notability. However, I already regret the decision, as the author immediately flooded the article with a irrelevant stuff, and, when I tried to help, she has thrown even more stuff on me (mainly basing the arguments on WP:OTHERSTUFF), so that I gave myself a word to never ever touch the article again. This is a nice example why people should not write autobiographies.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:51, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Further comment: After posting my !vote above, it occured to me that most of the crap sourcing seemed to be in the (in any case excessive) biblographical section. I have been WP:BOLD (feel free to revert, of course) and removed this, with the intention of showing what remains- and whether that is indicative of notability? E.g., 'St Petersburg's Encyclopaedia', maybe? Cheers, Muffled    Pocketed  13:58, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
 * At least Saint Petersburg Encyclopedia, Expert (current Ref. 9) and Smena (Ref. 10; can not open it now but I believe I have read it before).--Ymblanter (talk) 14:06, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Hmm....Ref 10 has a barely evanescent mention of Natalia Toreeva - certainly not anything approaching notability. Ref 9 also has a single passing mention as"There were his disciples Anatoly Basin, Natalia and Yuri Toreeva Nashivochkin, create your own work of art association 'Temple Wall', what is the next section of the exhibition is provided. In sidlinskoy school he stopped me, 'Portrait of a mother' Toreevoy. From the gloom displayed ugly beautiful face of an old woman. Natalia Toreeva worked as an artist at the 'Lenfilm'. She worked at the Alexis Herman, when he filmed 'Twenty Days Without War'. There are strange convergence. Why do I remember this movie, looking at the 'Portrait of a mother?' Because the portrait about the same as a movie. About the ill time and beautiful people, the share of which it got."  Velella  Velella Talk 14:21, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

Hello, this is Natalia Toreeva, the "real" person from your article. I can see several problems here. In parallel I am doing my input into Soviet Nonconformist Art article, specifically 1960-1980, the movement I was part of it. Ans since in Russia almost no one speaks/write in English, they asked me to do my input. I feel it is my obligation also to write about that time and artist groups where I knew and communicated with almost all artists and groups I mentioned in the article. And since for example, in Arefiev group, only one artist still alive, I feel it is time to make my input. But it is hard to find the references of that time in USSR. I have all the books I gave to the editors for the references, but some books are with ISBN which is hard to find on Internet, but some I found have OCLC at least. Another problem, the references I submitted to your editors are some in English, some in Russian, therefore who does not know Russian, can easily reject the references. The article about the International exhibition ("Dialogues"), 2013, is by Nikita Eliseev, where he described his vision about the exhibition, including the "School of Sidlin", and where he described my painting. What was wrong with it? Why it is not notability, where several hundred art works were included in this International exhibition, and only several artists names in his article? The problem was since your editors were busy, even though I asked for help the Teahouse several times, I started put in the article several references (in English and Russian), so it would be easier for the editors to see the references. Even some editors, DGG, or Bgwhite, or in Teahouse (arch. #484) talked not about notability but about Improvement the article, which should not be put into Delete category. Also, I have mentioned that my art works in 5 museums in their permanent collection, but the museums don't have the web sites to show you about theie art collections. I have the official documents about it, but you don't accept the emails. I checked another's artists web site, for example, Alek Rappoport, and they have mentioned only the list of museums, not direct reference to the record. You can't find it anywhere. So why the names of museums with my art works were deleted? Also, I'm a Member of the Artist Trade Union of Russia, and in 2011, they put me in another category as International Artists Rating, in their Reference book (http://www.10000best.com/be2-20.htm) of Artists Trade Union of Russia, listed 10,000 best world artists of XVIII-XXI centuries. Why this reference was deleted? Also, it was mentioned in Filmography my works as the Artist/Costume Designer. The director (Alexei German) received the Award for 3 films, including the film "Twenty Days without war", where I worked. If the actor receives any award, it is his award, but if the film received award, all crew worked on the film, is awarded. By the way, I mentioned also, that after my emigration from USSR, my name was deleted from the titles of the films, but restored after falling of Soviet Union, 1991. I included also references in Filmography (in imdb.com, in English, and http://www.kinopoisk.ru/name/2016607/ in Russian, where also not all my films included. For example, I worked on 2 films with DEFA (German Film studio), and after Falling WALL in Berlin, all the records were lost, as they answered on my email to Germany. Soooooo, this is my short story. I hope, you will look on the article, which was written by your editor (Ymblanter), for which I appreciate, with my some input of the references to make the editing more easier, and not from delete/reject the article attitude, but from helping to improve it. Thanks in advance.Toreeva (talk) 16:27, 30 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete and (re)salt. Not sure why restored this after it had been deleted and salted. Promotional autobiography of a non-notable person. Joseph2302 (talk) 19:49, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

I hope every editor has independent opinion about the article and its content. I'm not only Russian Artist, I'm also American Artist. And Joseph2302, please stop harassing me and follow everywhere demanding the deletion of the article and 5 drawings I copyrighted and don't have any problem with the submission to wiki. The article was not salted. It was the couple of pages before, and now has just one sentence. Where is the bio or promotional content? Non sense. All the info about my art work, paintings, drawings, my written and illustrated children books, which now in the permanent collection in the different museums, are deleted. I don't know you, your motives, but your action is definitely not in a good faith, and does not make the good face for the Wikipedia.Toreeva (talk) 23:12, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
 * What we need are publications that tell something of substance about the person. Even information that she belongs to certain school can be found only on obscure websites. Was anything about this person published in newspapers, journals or books? When and where she was born? Is she considered an outstanding/good/notable artist? Did she receive any honors? What she is known for? All of that should be documented in publications in newspapers, journals, books, reliable news websites, etc. For example, working on films is great, but this is not a good source because it tells nothing. Do you have any publications telling why work by this artist in these movies was important? I do not see anything so far. If there is something, could you please give the references/links below? Simply having having a list of her works like here is not enough. We need publications about her to establish notability. Thank you, My very best wishes (talk) 03:21, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
 * OK, I found one. What else? My very best wishes (talk) 03:32, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
 * (OK, I found a sufficient number of secondary sources about this person My very best wishes (talk) 18:49, 7 June 2016 (UTC))


 * Comment. I think she actually satisfy WP:Artist - #3 ("The person has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work"). Was her role in these books and films "major"? Yes, because her contribution was necessary. No secondary sources about the person are required in such cases per guidelines. My very best wishes (talk) 17:14, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete and Redirect to Soviet Nonconformist Art. I'm not seeing sufficient notability for a stand-alone page.  NewYorkActuary (talk) 16:09, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete Looking through both the sources and conversations, I find that I agree with Joseph2302. I do not speak Russian but this certainly does appear to be a promotional autobiography. I'm not sure a redirect to Soviet Nonconformist Art is required, but it costs nothing and is probably the best course to follow. The only problem is that the subject may decide to turn the redirect page back into an article. If this IS turned into a redirect - rather than being salted again - eyes should remain on the redirect page to make sure it STAYS a redirect page. David in DC (talk) 19:00, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I'd accept a redirect if and only if the redirect was fully protected, so no-one could revert back to the article. Joseph2302 (talk) 19:02, 31 May 2016 (UTC)


 * TNT delete. When Ymblanter has read the sources in the original language, I hesitate to disagree with his assessment that the subject qualifies for WP:BIO.  However, everyone's in agreement that the entire history of this article is junk.  Let's just get rid of the current mess but allow someone else to create an article on this notable person.  Nyttend (talk) 21:01, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Nyttend, this is what I asked from the beginning that someone would help with the editing. The problem is that some of the references are in Russian, some in English. And also the editor needs to understand the Art in Russia, specifically the ""underground" art of the Soviet Nonconformist movement, that you can't find in newspapers since it was an Unofficial art, before the falling of Soviet Union in 1991. As Plato said: "A good decision is based on knowledge and not on numbers".

1) If you can look into deleted the Draft:Natalia Toreeva, there is more explanation why the "School of Sidlin" is important for the history of Russian art. In short, O. Sidlin was the student of the Kuzma Petrov-Vodkin and Kazimir Malevich, which is the beginning of the Nonconformist Art in Russia (and in the World) in 1920-1930e. Same is true for another "Sterligov" artists group. And as someone told that the webs were used are not real one, it is not true: http://www.encspb.ru/object/280472958?lc=ru (Toreeva's name in Russian there: Н. Тореева). This web (and other webs with www.encspb.ru) is created by the St. Petersburg Encyclopedia under the Committee of Culture of St. Petersburg, the government art page. It is the most reliable source. In this Draft 32 references were included, so if the editing can be made, there are enough ref. to select. In the current article, only 10 references are left after the deletion.

2) In that Draft, the diff. sections were created, which I followed the articles of other our artists. For example, a) Education. I have 2 Masters Degrees. MA in Arts (in Russia), and MS in Computer Science (in USA). I retired as the system analyst with 5 Patents in IT company, where I worked. One of your editor told me that I have to clean up the article since there enough notability, but Patents info definitely I should keep. My Education section was deleted. b) Filmography, which also was deleted. I worked on "Lenfilm" film studio as the Artist/Costume Designer. As I mentioned there, our director (Aleksei Yuryevich German) was top 5 directors on WWII, and who received several Awards for his films, including "Twenty Days Without War", where I worked. I remember, when we celebrated it, our scenarist, famous Russian poet, Konstantin Simonov, came to me and gave me a strong handshaking for my work on the film. I still remember his Russian handshake. But you can't read about this film and awards in any newspaper of that time, since this film was put on the shelf and was released only in 1987, due to the difference of the vision on WWII in this film in comparison with the Soviet Union political view. But it does not mean that notability of the Artist's work is not there. You can read about the director and this film in wikipedia. Just for your info: when Stalin died in 1953, at the same day died our world known composer, Prokofiev. But his death info were not included in any newspaper. But it does not mean that his name does not have notability. c) I'm the Member of Art Union of Russia, and in 2011, they included me in their Reference book as the 10,000 best world artists of XVIII-XXI centuries. It is governed by the Artists Union of Russia, reliable source as well. http://www.100000best.com/be2-20.htm This also was deleted. d) Museums: My artwork in the permanent collection of 5 museums. 3 museums in Russia, and 2 museums in USA. Why in another artists articles they just mentioned the names of the museums without the direct references, which does not exist, but you deleted this section from my article? e) Publications: I wrote and illustrated 3 children's books that are now in the museum in Russia. The editor's page: http://sbpra.com/NataliaGToreeva/ I also included other books with my illustrations, including the "Christmas in Russia" and "Twenty Faces of Boris Pasternak, noble poet of Russia, who was not permitted to receive the Award by the government. These books illustrations are also in museum in St. Petersburg. I have the official documents, but you don't accept the emails to prove that my art work in museums. f) In 1981, 1983, 1985, 1986, 1987: Natalia G. Toreeva's drawings were included in the New York Russian language newspapers and journals: "Novy Svet" ("New World"): issues #91, #92, 1981; Satirical journal "Petooch" ("Rooster"): issue 4, 1983; "Novoe Russkoe Slovo" ("New Russian Word"): the articles by L. Parkhomov "Creative work of Natalia Toreeva", 1985, "The World of Natalia Toreeva", about her "Solo" exhibition in the Stuart Art Center Gallery in Chicago, 1986; "Almanac Panorama": issue 246,1986; article the "Concert for Voice with Accent", issue 318, 1987, New York, USA. I deleted this section since I have the originals of these newspapers/journal, but not references to them. That's why I asked for help if someone from editor can access to these data. No response.

3) I don't include here the webs to the books publishing and exhibitions, they are in the articles and could be used for the appropriate selection.

So, please review your decision about the article with the good faith. This is my quote I teach my children, and seems related to this topics: "You don't make me low (since I earned my place in history), but you do low of yourself." And I would like to end it with Plato's quote "Opinion is the medium between knowledge and ignorance". I'm opened for any help in improvement of the article. Thanks for your time.Toreeva (talk) 00:32, 2 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Weak keep. Ymblanter makes a convincing argument that it is possible to write an article on this person, using sufficient sources in Russian, but Nyttend also makes a valid point that we won't be able to get a neutral article out of this without a completely independent third party being involved. However, I think the uber-small stub we now have is a good enough starting point. I am just getting comfortable with parsing Cryllic in my head, let alone any actual Russian, and I don't really have enough grasp on artist biographies to be able to sit down and improve the article into something that will stick. The only possible other option I can do is sound the "experienced female BLP writer alarm" and ping and  and see if they can work some magic.
 * Looking at Toreeva's comments above, I would advise the following - having academic qualifications does not give you a free pass to notability, you need to have something equivalent to a tenured position at a university, which means you will get regular academic publications produced under your name. I'm happy to AGF that publishing books might be suitable if they have been easily documented as best sellers or have achieved widespread critical acclaim in national publications. The Member of Art Union of Russia reference book might be important, but it would depend on how many other names are mentioned in the book. If it's the art equivalent of Burke's Peerage or Who's Who, it's suitable, if it lists just about anyone in a union (broadly equivalent to the Equity register), it's not really unique enough to consider. The important point to remember in a biographical article is - what will people be saying about you in 100 years' time? That's what we're aiming to document. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  14:05, 2 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment: I was one of the editors who tried working on this article after a post at WP:COIN. I trust 's judgement that the subject is notable. I can fully understand that the press at that time was probably controlled by the Soviet government which explains a lack of sources. However, I gave up on the article after being constantly requested to add references to a non-notable local writers' group. Personally I think the stub right now seems OK. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 14:29, 2 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep minus cruft Can stay a stub until better sources can be added. Individual appears to pass notability, just needs to not edit her own article.  COI ≠ a notability problem, just a sourcing and tone problem.   Montanabw (talk) 05:26, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

I can include the edition of references into Talk section of this article, as My very best wishes suggested, so the editors can select whatever appropriate to choose for the article. I will add the newspapers in New York, year and number of publications hoping that someone has approach to their archive. I will not add much to overflow the input, just small input. Regarding the Member of Art Union: they have the explanation in their web, but in short: To get into the Artists Union of Russia the artist should be selected into their 7 categories. The number of artists in the Union of Russia is about 50,000, and is different for each year. But to be selected into International "10,000 best world artists of XVIII-XXI centuries" category, they have only selected 10,000 artists that have upper 1-3 category. For example, Picasso = category 1, etc. http://www.10000best.com/be2-20.htm to see the Reference book. They don't put the category number here (only for galleries/museums), but they sent an official document to the artist. You can use this reference for whatever artist you want to verify. As an example, in our "School of Sidlin", our teacher, O. Sidlin=2 category, and only 4 of us (Y. Nashivochnikov, A. Basin, I. Ivanov, and N. Toreeva), are included in this Rating category (=3 category). So, for just Members of Artists Union = up to 7, for International Rating = upper 3 categories. This info is not for promotional purpose, but for quick understanding how their system of selection is built. Also, just for your info, I submitted 5 drawings, and they pass the copyright info by your editors. But I will not included all 5 into the talk page, since if only one should be selected, I prefer to have this computer graphics (1992) what you have now in the article, because it best reflects the falling of USSR (in 1991), as you can see it as the "grinding machine" and importance dates of the Soviet system there. I will let you know, when I will finish my input into the talk page. Thanks.Toreeva (talk) 13:06, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Artist trade Union of Russia is a personal pet project of Sergey Zagrayevsky who is not really notable as artist or art historian. I think in Russian Wikipedia they at some point decided it is on the level of spam.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:03, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
 * We have pages Artists Trade Union of Russia and Sergey Zagraevsky. This is quite possibly an RS, not a spam My very best wishes (talk) 14:19, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Both articles were started by User:Ozolina, a personal secretary of Zagraevsky.--Ymblanter (talk) 14:29, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Osolina is not secretary, she is the Staff editor, they both have PhD, and he is awarded prof. in Arts. This is the web, but the the Artists Union itself is an official organization supported by government. They don't take any promotions/money from galleries, artists, museums, they have own committees to select artists in the Artists Union. It is definitely not a spam. And every artist is proud to be included there.Toreeva (talk) 14:56, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Indeed, she was just his student, and both articles were written in the COI. Obviously, as a COI editor yourself, you do not see a problem in COI editing, but I hope other users do.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:04, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Hmm... We also have United Art Rating (i.e. the source under discussion) and this deletion discussion. Actually, Zagraevsky looks to me as someone highly notable. There was even a little poem by Bulat Okudzhava about him . Obviously, there is an article about him on ruwiki as well - ru:Заграевский, Сергей Вольфгангович. All these pages also exist on ruwiki and look sufficiently well-sourced to me, although something may need be fixed My very best wishes (talk) 15:28, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I am not suggesting to delete the article on Zagrayevsky (the guy invested a lot of time to create some press about him), just merely note that his private opinion on notability (expressed as the United Art Rating) is not exactly eqauivalent to our WP:GNG.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:44, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
 * NB: Articles for deletion/United Art Rating--Ymblanter (talk) 15:45, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Consensus may change. I am not sure this is just his private opinion, but even if it is, this can be quoted as an opinion of an expert. My very best wishes (talk) 15:48, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

This Artists Trade Union of Russia includes the artists from Russian Empire, USSR, artists from the former Soviet Union, and emigration, and is not HIS private organization. It is not based on volunteers and they have the normal salaries from the government. If each city has its own Artists Union, it is bigger, since it covers all Russia, and not only one city. And all art experts, museums, galleries are looking into it where category of the artist (#1..2..7) is defined. I'm not going to convince on it though, everyone has own opinion. Thanks.Toreeva (talk) 16:39, 3 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep. I had some doubts, but after checking sources including several secondary RS about the person, I think she satisfies not only WP:Artist (see her suggestions to improve the page here that show her notability as an artist), but also our general notability guidelines. My very best wishes (talk) 16:53, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete at best for and also inviting who works at these subject AFDs, because there's nothing clarifying these "art museums" and thus nothing to immediately pin exactness of information. Overall, there's simply nothing else convincing also including for the applicable notability so, with this, delete until someone can actually find better and subsequently improve.  SwisterTwister   talk  07:51, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete. I notice there is no article for her in the ruWP, so I have my doubts, because they are very inclusive for Russian artists and writers and academics. the real question is what permanent collections her work is in: if they are major museums, she's notable. Without actual evidence of this, a delete is inevitable.  DGG ( talk ) 08:23, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, she satisfy WP:Artist #3 and general notability guidelines as someone who significantly contributed in creation of movies, a leading fashion designer (as reflected in a secondary source about her), an author and illustrator of books and an artist who had numerous exhibitons of her works. I think she also satisfies WP:Artist #4b ("the person's works have been a substantial part of a significant exhibition"). There is no requirement for an artist to have his/her work be present permanently in major museums. An artist can be notable as an illustrator (see List of illustrators, for example). And the argument about ruwiki is not valid. One could provide a very long list of pages about notable people, including Russians (and this artist is actually "Russia/US") that have pages about them here, but not on ruwiki.My very best wishes (talk) 14:19, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

DGG, you are who deleted my Draft, and you are who told me that I need just clean up the text, and question isn't in notability. I need to omit minor material, there will be sufficient without it. So I followed your advice, from 10 pages of Draft, now it 1 page. I have the list of museums, and I have the official documents about the art work in their collection, but you don't accept the emails. And why in the articles of another artists, they just have the list of the museums, where their work are, and those articles were accepted? Thanks.Toreeva (talk) 12:15, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

And I don't want to be part of ruWP, that's why I'm not there. And that's why many artists of 1970s-1980s were EMIGRATED. When I told my children I have a blue blood, they asked me to prove it. There is no prove, because after the revolution, all church records were destroyed, but it does not mean your heritage is destroyed. Many aristocrats after revolution went to France, and to survive worked as the taxi drivers. Did they lose their notability? MY answer is NO. The editors answer could be different. When we made a film about WWII with DEFA German film studio, I asked the policeman who stayed at the door in the church, since all churches were closed after the revolution, if I can see inside for our film. He looked around and said "Only 5 minutes". So it was my first visit to the church, and it was shaking for me, how beautiful was inside..You have to understand the system from the political, historical, and art point of view to judge the artists.. Even the collectors of unofficial art could lose their life, so there are no record about the collections. The less records you have, the better. After my emigration, my name was deleted in the film "Twenty Days Without War" (I did not check other my films since I did not have access to see them), but re-installed after the falling of Soviet Union. I'm happy that after the falling of Soviet Union in 1991, the interest on unofficial art of that time is growing on the West, and I feel it is my obligation to include info about the art/artists of that time. If your obligation is delete as many articles as possible, I understand it. My another question: to improve the article, can I include the info I just received from the West Chicago Museum. It was the competition for the Banner, and I used the collage that was selected among other artists. The collage and 2 my other collages were on the exhibition in May. This Banner is put on the Main street, and will be there till Sept for the public observation: http://westchicago.org/arts/art-banners-a-creative-focal-point-on-main-street/ Thanks. Toreeva (talk) 15:19, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

I forgot to ask, if this input could also improve the article, specifically 2 articles in newspapers?

In 1981, 1983, 1985, 1986, 1987: Natalia G. Toreeva's drawings were included in the New York Russian language newspapers and journals:

 "Novy Svet" ("New World"): issues #91, #92, 1981; Satirical journal "Petooch" ("Rooster"): issue 4, 1983;

 "Novoe Russkoe Slovo", New Your, USA ("New Russian Word"):

1) The articles by L. Parkhomov "Creative work of Natalia Toreeva", June 12, 1985: Л. Пархомов. "Творчество Наташи Тореевой", "...Можно увести с собой талант и Россию в душе, этому я поверил, глядя на полотна Наташи...";

2) "The World of Natalia Toreeva", about her "Solo" exhibition in the Stuart Art Center Gallery in Chicago, Nov 20, 1986: Л. Пархомов. "На выставке художницы Наталии Тореевой", article "Мир Наталии Тореевой": "...Чувство искренней радости, соприкосновения с неожиданным и прекрасным долго ещё не оставляет зрителя, которому посчастливилось побывать на персональной выставке Наталии Тореевой в художесткенной галерее Стюарт-центра."

 "Almanac Panorama": issue 246,1986 (drawings); issue 318, 1987, New York, USA.

If someone has access to the archive database of these newspapers (I have the originals), you can read all the articles.

Below is my point that is not related to the article, and where I'm not trying to convince anyone. It is just input that could improve some knowledge in Russian history of art and literature. The director of the Washington Museum of Russian Poetry and Music, (who has my number of Posters), that is related specifically to 5 Russian poets of the Silver age (1920s): Marina Tsvetaeva, Anna Akhmatova, Osip Mandelstam, Nik. Gumilev, and Boris Pasternak. I personally met A.Akhmatova and Olga Berrgoltz, since our house, where I lived with my mother, was only couple of houses from the House of Writers. So my mom often took me there where the poets and writers read their pieces. I did not see B. Pasternak, since he lived in Moscow. Pasternak was submitted to the Nobel but was not permitted to go outside of USSR to receive the Award, only his son later was permitted to receive the award for his father. On the West, Boris Pasternak known only for his "Doctor Zhivago", specifically from the film, but we respected him as the poet. B. Pasternak and Anna Akhmatova survived only by doing the translations, and putting their poetry in the box for the better future. (Mandelstam died in Gulag, N. Gumilev also died, M. Tsvetaeva killed herself). So, I made the Posters for this museum, where these 5 poets are included. Then I got an email from this director asking me some interesting question. He asked me, as an ARTIST, to look into 8 drawings by Marina Tsvetaeva (4 drawings of men and 4 drawings of women), and he sent me them by email. These drawings are in the museum in Moscow, but they don't know if they belong to M. Tsvetaeva, and if so, who are on these drawings. He also asked another artists and art historians to gather their opinion on it too. So I started research on M. Tsvetaeva. I was shocked, when I learned that before her marriage, she was in the lesbian relation with another poet woman, so I started look on her poems and drawings not from what we learned in our schools point of view, but from this shocking news for me. So, I wrote several assays to this director, and he sent some of the points to that museum, but Russia is not ready (yet) to accept M. Tsvetaeva life style and her poetry from this point of view. And I'm sure, the schools still continue to teach students as it was before, and not mentioned at all her life style that could play the biggest part in her poetry. So, my point is that you can't find the records (or ruWP), and if you will find, it is not necessary 100% accurate, because it could depend on the specific time in the history. You need to follow your knowledge on any subject. Thanks.Toreeva (talk) 18:32, 6 June 2016 (UTC)


 * It is not I who decide notability, but the community. On re-examining the article, I conclude that it very clearly does not meet the standards for NARTIST. The minor material is apparently all that there is. Either the community will agree with me, or it will not.  Furthermore, in looking at the discussion on this page, I conclude that you are too involved with the subject to make it likely that you would succeed in writing an objective article, even if the artist did meet the criteria.  DGG ( talk ) 19:33, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

DGG, I did not get it, that's why I asked someone to help with improvement the article. Can someone to include into the article 2 articles from the New Your newspapers and the current info from the West Chicago museum about the Banner exhibition? Or it does not matter, bec. you have already your opinion? Thanks.Toreeva (talk) 21:03, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

It looks that the article is ready for your review. Please review it with the good faith. (Thank you! Спасибо! Danke!) Thanks everyone for your help! Toreeva (talk) 04:58, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

No input on the updated article review? Can someone bring the independent editors and not those who were already participated in deletion of the Draft article? Otherwise, the article's judgement will have the obvious bias result, which could base on the "Talk" discussion about autobiography (which is not) and not on the article content itself. Thanks.Toreeva (talk) 15:21, 10 June 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.