Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Natasha Lytess (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. This seems to be the consensus after relisting. I personally have no opinion.  DGG ( talk ) 04:37, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Natasha Lytess
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )


 * Delete: again. Non-notable failed actress. AFDed and deleted in August 2015 based on salacious speculation, which could contravene libel, which is why it was stricken by the previous admin, @Timotheus Canens (see ). Wikipedia is not the National Enquirer.  Quis separabit?  01:12, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete Notability is not inherited Cbs527 (talk) 02:13, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
 * It appears the article fails WP:GNP in the applicable categories - Any Biography, Creative professionals and Entertainers. Article seems to fall in the "Non valid general criteria" category. Cbs527 (talk) 13:54, 4 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Articles for deletion/Log/2016 November 4.  —cyberbot I   Talk to my owner :Online 01:26, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. --Cameron11598 (Talk) 02:54, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions. --Cameron11598 (Talk) 02:54, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. --Cameron11598 (Talk) 02:55, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete Non-Notable. Fails WP:NACTOR --Cameron11598 (Talk) 02:56, 4 November 2016 (UTC


 * Keep Lytess was best known as an acting coach, not as an actor, so our notability guideline for actors does not apply. A simple Google Books search shows that Lytess is discussed in dozens of books about Marilyn Monroe and Hollywood of the late 1940s and early 1950s. The article can be improved and should not be deleted. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  06:40, 4 November 2016 (UTC)


 * @Cullen328: " A simple Google Books search shows that Lytess is discussed in dozens of books about Marilyn Monroe and Hollywood of the late 1940s and early 1950s" -- that sounds like she derived any claim to notability almost entirely based on a purportedly intimate, never acknowledged, relationship with another party, failing the threshold for notability. The Lytess article should be SALTed and any mention of Lytess should be to the Monroe article and limited strictly to sourced facts, not speculative innuendo. To quote one of these transom peering displays of journalistic priorities: "Lytess claimed Monroe was 'always naked' in the house but 'hated sex'" and "author Lois Banner wrote: 'Natasha and Marilyn lived together as husband and wife, although Marilyn often simply wanted to be held.'" (see here) -- so Monroe was an asexual lesbian and Lytess her frustrated (in more than one sense, apparently) Svengali? (NOTE: This should be stricken by the closing admin.) Quis separabit?  12:44, 4 November 2016 (UTC) As far as "Lytess was best known as an acting coach" -- can you name me any of her other clients? She certainly was not a particularly successful one based upon any evaluation of the metrics of her brief U.S. career, which is not to say she had no talent or that her early demise from cancer is anything less than tragic but editors shoudl see where I am headed with this.  Quis separabit?  12:57, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Reply to : I mentioned actual books as future sources for the article, and certainly support removing the Daily Mail from the article, as well as any unproven speculation that Lytess and Monroe had an active sexual relationship. There are things that are clear from a quick review of over a dozen biographes of Monroe as well as biographies of Joe Dimaggio and Otto Preminger: Lytess was a major influence on Monroe for about seven years. They shared a home for several months. Lytess was on movie sets during shoots and several famous directors actively resented her influence. Many Monroe biographies devote dozens of pages to a detailed ongoing portrayal of their relationship. Although it is clear that Lytess was sexually attracted to Monroe, it is far from clear that those feelings were reciprocated. There is one well-known quote by Monroe to the contrary. At least one source mentions that Lytess coached other Hollywood starlets. As for success, she coached one of the most famous movie stars in history for seven years. In conclusion, this biography should be built by summarizing what the highest quality book sources say, while excluding tabloid-style sensationalism, whether in newspaper, magazine or book form. I am prepared to begin that work but am deterred by an appeal to salt the topic. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  15:59, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Keep clearly passes WP:GNG In ictu oculi (talk) 08:14, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Cerebellum (talk) 17:35, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep. Lytess was at least modestly notable as an acting coach, and an important figure in Monroe's biography.  Invocations of potential "libel" here are inappropriate, since everyone involved is dead; editors can use the usual processes to decide by consensus what to include and what to exclude, and there is sufficient legitmate material in reliable sources to sustain a biographical article.  I don't think deleting this article and excluding verifiable content would be beneficial to the encyclopedia. --Arxiloxos (talk) 23:12, 23 November 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.