Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Native Guns


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result of the debate was keep --Ichiro 08:07, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Native Guns
This appears to be a non-notable rap group. They have no listing on allmusic, and the small number of links returned by Google are mostly either geocities or myspace pages. Can&#39;t sleep, clown will eat me 10:05, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
 * The second half of this article is a copyvio of their MySpace webpage, http://www.myspace.com/kiwi Can&#39;t sleep, clown will eat me 00:13, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Badagnani 00:53, 31 December 2005 (UTC) Native Guns featured in Canada's Vancouver Georgia Straight Weekly-[] Named one of L.A.'s "Top Ten Most Intriguing Bands"-[] Featured in asianweek.com- [] Fil-Arts Fest- [] sfweekly.com- []
 * Keep. Article appears well researched and deals with an important Filipino hip hop/rap group.  Yes, it's absolutely correct that non-USA rap (or any non-English language rap for that matter) is not generally covered by All Music Guide, no matter its quality or importance to its local culture or subculture, all the more reason such groups be covered here.  Badagnani 12:38, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Please review WP:MUSIC. Which inclusion criteria does this group meet?  Can&#39;t sleep, clown will eat me 12:42, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, these musicians are born and raised in California, what do you mean by non-USA rap group? Can&#39;t sleep, clown will eat me 12:50, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
 * An Internet search shows that the group is well known and performs widely in Filipino and Asian Pacific American cultural festivals, and that it is one of the more active and well regarded hip hop groups in the Filipino American hip hop subculture (probably the third most important hip hop subculture in the U.S. after African American and Puerto Rican American). Further, the group's work frequently appears in Filipino and Asian Pacific American print and radio media.  Has also toured throughout the U.S. and Canada.  From WP:Music:
 * "Is cited in notable and verifiable sources as being influential in style, technique, repertory or teaching in a particular music genre."
 * "Is frequently covered in publications devoted to a notable sub-culture."
 * "Has gone on an international concert tour, or a national concert tour over notable musical venues in at least one large or medium-sized country[1], reported in notable and verifiable sources."
 * Delete, fails WP:MUSIC based on the article, and I can't find anything that would show otherwise. And there really is no systemic bias against Californians. - Bobet 13:30, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete lets start a systemic bias against Californians! (actual reason: fails WP:MUSIC per above). --Pboyd04 15:56, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep the article on the Native Guns should not be deleted on the grounds that they are a not only a staple in current Filipino-American hip-hop culture, but of independent (indie) hip-hop music and are also well known activists for human/Asian Pacific American rights. They are known within that community and yes while they are NOT on allmusic.com, so aren't Francis Magalona, or Andrew E. who's impact in the history of Philipppine-based Filipino hip-hop cannot be disputed. Neither are even "Asin" or Florante who are national stars and heroes and whos anti-Marcos songs such as "Upuan" and "Balita" played a big role in the inspiring the famous 1986 EDSA People's Power Revolution and also have had their songs along with Freddie Aguilar translated into more than 20 languages and have become hit songs in other countries other than the Philippines. What these artists meant to Philippine-based hip-hop and rock then is exactly what the Native Guns mean to the Filipino-American hip-hop community now. It should also be noted that the Native Guns' Kiwi, (born Jack DeJesus) went to high school with the world famous Black Eyed Peas' Apl.de.ap (Allan Pineda) as well as Will.i.am and was one of the influences young Allan had upon moving here from the Philippines. Furthermore the Native Guns have been featured in numerous magazine and newspaper articles, and were named one of L.A.'s "Top 10 Most Intriguing Bands" by the L.A. Alternative Press. Links:

The duo was also featured in Jointz Mag. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.251.125.85 (talk • contribs) 02:55, 30 December 2005 User:Wikipedian13
 * Keep Well written article. I see no reason this should be deleted. Check two you 23:50, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep I'm amazed- this is an incredibly informative article on the underground asian hiphop scene. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.86.7.193 (talk • contribs) 03:44, 1 January 2006
 * This AFD debate is being relisted in order to prompt a more thorough consensus. Please place new discussion below this line. Can&#39;t sleep, clown will eat me 00:15, 2 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment - Hey this is Kiwi of the Native Guns. i just found out about all this recently, so bear with me. anyway, as far as the article, yes there's some cut-n-paste, but whatever's written about us looks satisfactory. not sure how else to go about this. we're also mentioned in an article on wikipedia regarding filipino hip hop []. i can clean it up if need be, but for the most part, it's accurate. if you need me to add or clarify anything let me know groundworkmusic@yahoo.com. as far as whether or not we're 'worthy' of being on here well that's not my decision but i think the track record speaks for itself. sorry if i didn't follow the format, i never even heard of wikipedia until now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.131.4.166 (talk • contribs)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletions.   -- Rob 01:48, 2 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete probably qualifies as band-vanity.  ALKIVAR &trade;Radioactivity symbol.png 12:31, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete, fails WP:V. If we can't verify what you say is the truth, then we can't have it in the wiki. RasputinAXP  talk contribs 14:07, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep based on writeups in regional music and culture magazines. Tim Pierce 14:12, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep as per above comments. Jcuk 15:56, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep. I am a doctoral student writing about cultural studies and social transformation at UC Berkeley. Native Guns and Kiwi are one of the top hip hop groups within that APIA community, and in terms of messaging, bridges everything from the personal to the community and the international. Native Guns is well known and loved in the community from LA to the Bay to NYC and Chi-town. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.107.134.213 (talk • contribs)
 * Keep Falls under:
 * 1) Has become the most prominent representative of a notable style or the local scene of a city
 * 2) Is frequently covered in publications devoted to a notable sub-culture.
 * Information is verifiable under multiple sources (specifically within the APIA music and activism scene), including:
 * Locus Arts- [] Vancouver's Under the Volcano- []
 * APAture- []
 * UCLA's Ethnomusic archives (call #200305_0005)- []
 * Festival of Phillipines ART & Culture- []
 * East Bay Express- []
 * — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bankuei (talk • contribs)


 * comment - Some people make bad-faith copyright violation nominations, in order to do an end run around the {afd} procedure. An article I started was on the receiving end of someone willing to take advantage of the three week long backlog in addressing copy-vios.  So I checked this assertion.  The copy-vio assertion is solid.  I went back to the beginning of the article, to see whether rhe article could be saved by reeling back to an earlier version that was not a copy-vio.  The very first contributor's version incorporated material from its external links.
 * This does not mean there should be no article about this band. If the original author of the material on the myspace web-pages that has been incorporated into this article releases it under an appropriate liscence, or puts their material in the public domain, the copy-vio concern goes away...  --  Geo Swan 22:36, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep Excellent article, seems notable enough. Kevin 22:51, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep Looks notable to me. A.J.A. 00:28, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep. Well researched, needs some help with the style, but overall no way that this should be deleted. Soo 01:22, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep --Terence Ong Talk 14:15, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.