Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Naum Shusterman


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. Ron Ritzman (talk) 01:29, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Naum Shusterman

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Non-notable field grade officer. Enough work went into this one that I wanted to put it to discussion. A nice bio, but no assertion of notability. EricSerge (talk) 02:01, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete. Admittedly there may be a WP:BIAS issue with non-English/non-online sources, but I don't see coverage that passes WP:BIO. Note that the Red Banner does not earn him a WP:SOLDIER pass, even though it was for a time the nation's highest military decoration, because it's unlikely he earned it while it bore that distinction; the Order of Lenin superseded it as the highest in 1930, when Shusterman had only just enlisted. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 02:41, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The Order of Lenin is a technical WP:SOLDIER pass; thanks for finding it, Andrei. However, I'm still concerned by the lack of coverage of this individual. Are there any secondary sources that discuss him in detail? –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 17:49, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep. Upon further research of archival documents, it was discovered that Shusterman did, in fact, receive an Order of Lenin in 1941. This has been added into the article, and I believe this earns him a WP:SOLDIER pass. Andrei.smolnikov (talk) 06:49, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
 * That's great. I do not speak Russian but I can run google translate, it seems that the reference points to the top page of an archive website.  Is there any way that you can point the reference to the record of his award?  EricSerge (talk) 12:10, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, the image of the archival document from the awarding list is located here: http://podvig-naroda.ru/filter/filterimage?path=Z/001/033-0682524-0445/00000753.jpg&id=10937664&id=10937664&id1=3d051e3eb2ee5e248eb0613e9203f8a5, but it is an image, with the text in Russian. I could translate it, if you wish. Andrei.smolnikov (talk) 12:43, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
 * That's okay, I can assume good faith on the reference, and it is obvious upon cursory examination that the doc is about Shusterman and the Орден "Ленина" while also mentioning his receipt of the Орден "Краснoй Звезды". EricSerge (talk) 20:06, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Update - I have translated the document into English and it can be viewed here, or on the article. Andrei.smolnikov (talk) 06:11, 19 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep Highly decorated WP:SOLDIER Unlikely to have seen a delete proposal for a holder of equivalent medals in the US or UK Commonwealth forces. Nomination appears to be WP:BIAS Arjayay (talk) 08:42, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Subject of the article is one of 581,300 recipients of the Order of the Red Banner and 1,000 three time recipients of the Order of the Red Star, which also served as a long service award, which if I read the award's article right he would have received two of those for long service. At the time of nomination there was no mention of his receipt of the Order of Lenin in the article.  I can assure you if it were a British Lieutenant Colonel with similar decorations who did not have notability outside of having a few gongs, I would have nominated.  Cheers.  EricSerge (talk) 12:10, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Firstly, the subject of the article recieved seven orders, seven campaign medals and at least ten jubilee medals. How you can refer to these awards as "a few gongs", particularly when you consider the amount of discrimination against Jews in the USSR, I do not know. Secondly, Shusterman recieved at least two of his three Orders of the Red Star before 1944, i.e. NOT as long service awards. This is evident in the image in the body of the article, of the 43rd Soviet FAR in 1943. Shusterman, standing on the right, is clearly wearing two Orders of the Red Star.Andrei.smolnikov (talk) 12:56, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
 * My mistake on the Orders of the Red Star. Your reference to "seven campaign medals and at least ten jubilee medals", are been there done that medals and do not confer notability.  Those medals were awarded by millions.  In time of war there are many heroic soldiers, but many do not meet the community's requirements concerning notability.  Military records are great as reliable sources documenting awards, but they are not the secondary sources that we look for in biographies.  To give you an example, the Distinguished Service Order is a pretty prestigious award.  However, to make the notable recipient list on that article's page you have to have received four of them.  Is Shusterman the most decorated Jewish officer of the Soviet Air Force in World War II?  That would make him notable, but that assertion would need a reliable source.  EricSerge (talk) 20:17, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I understand that the medals and orders were awarded to millions. I was not arguing Shusterman's notability when I mentioned "seven campaign medals and at least ten jubilee medals", I was simply pointing out that it is at the very least disrespectful to refer to a veteran of the Great Patriotic War as "having a few gongs". Andrei.smolnikov (talk) 21:58, 18 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep - clearly meets WP:SOLDIER as the recpient of a notable award, nice work finding the details! - The Bushranger One ping only 20:09, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. &#9733;&#9734;  DUCK IS JAMMMY &#9734;&#9733; 09:30, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
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 * Delete - none of his effectively campaign medals make him notable. Buckshot06 (talk) 06:45, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe not, but his Order of Lenin entitles him to a WP:SOLDIER pass. WombatIce1828 (talk) 07:36, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
 * It's not a "pass", it's a presumption of notability that needs ratification by adequate coverage under the General Notability Guidelines ("significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject"). GraemeLeggett (talk) 18:55, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Firstly, most users contributing to this page believe that is IS a pass, and secondly, there is "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Andrei.smolnikov (talk) 03:04, 24 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep - this person clearly passes WP:SOLDIER, and I believe that this makes him notable.WombatIce1828 (talk) 07:14, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep - a notable and highly decorated officer who clearly meets WP:SOLDIER. Possible WP:BIAS issue with nomination. 203.48.59.76 (talk) 03:46, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep. Subject meets the guidelines for inclusion.   coccyx bloccyx  (toccyx)  19:18, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.