Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nebojša Todorović


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Kurykh (talk) 20:25, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Nebojša Todorović

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Apparently fails WP:NACADEMIC. PROD removed w/o comment. — swpb T 13:26, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete. Does not meet Notability for an academic criteria. Not an exceptional academic. Knox490 (talk) 13:59, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. — swpb T 13:27, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Serbia-related deletion discussions. — swpb T 13:27, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. — swpb T 13:27, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

“one of the leading musicologists and music theorist in Serbia” was a quotation from an independent source.
 * Comment: The PROD wasn't exactly removed without comment – the editor who removed it suggested we expand the article by translating from Serbian Wikipedia. The Serbian article appears to be completely unreferenced, though, so I don't think that would help in establishing notability. It would be good to get the opinion of someone who can read Serbian. --Deskford (talk) 14:02, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Do NOT delete. The article is improved and will be additionally improved in the following days.Andrija (talk) 13:36, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete. I am a native speaker of Serbo-Croatian, and was able to check the sources. I don't see anything particularly outstanding in the subject's biography that would suggest passing of WP:NACADEMIC. Yeah, Todorović is/was a professor of musicology on a couple of musical faculties and high schools in south Serbia, presided or was an advisor on a number of minor festivals or local cultural institutions, and wrote a musical critic here and there. pretty much par for a course of a typical academic career. Sourcing in the article is barrel-scraping, with multiple sources repeated, and multiple passing mentions listed. I'm particularly unimpressed with the subject's written bibliography on his official curriculum page, which consists of one monograph from 1981 and one work on Mozart's sonatas from 2007. That's pretty little output for a one of the leading musicologists and music theorists in Serbia. No such user (talk) 10:24, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment Let me try to clarify some things:

Todorović has taught at two universities in Serbia, of five that currently offer education in the field of music, and presented lectures at conferences organized by additional two universities.

Niš is the second largest city in Serbia, with the university, electronic industry, airport, symphony orchestra, youth philharmonic orchestra, etc., and several festivals, including the international choir festival of which Todorović was an artistic director and selector.That choir festival has a long tradition and is well known in Serbia (and not only in Serbia); as it was mentioned in one of the sources, last year it was reviewed by three well-known musicologists from Belgrade, including those from the national radio station Radio Belgrade. It is not a minor festival. Festivals in Leskovac and Vranje maybe don’t have such a long tradition, but are well organized and attract high quality participants, what can be easily verified any musician who reads their programs. We shouldn’t judge the quality of some institution or manifestation by its location, but by the quality of  people included in it. There’s no reason to underestimate those in south Serbia. (And just to emphasize that I don’t live in those towns, nor am I affiliated with those festivals in any way.) Serbia is too small country to have some significant differences between its regions.

It is normal that somebody who lives and works in south Serbia (south-eastern actually) focuses his activities in that area, but Todorović had activities in other parts of Serbia as well. Invitations to give public lectures on the national radio station in Belgrade, to review a book published in the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, present a scientific paper in the Serbian Republic, review a festival in Montenegro and publish reviews in their major newspaper certainly suggest his notability in the region.

As for his CV at the University of Niš’s website (published in 2013 and obviously not updated): in contrast to some Western countries, in Serbia Commission for Accreditation and Quality Assurance doesn’t require or allow professors to write their complete CV as a part of documentation reviewed in the process of accreditation. In order to prove his/her competency to teach certain subject(s), one has to list “at least five, not more than ten” most important publications/concerts/exhibitions…, depending on the scientific/artistic area, so, only examples, as Todorović probably did. And those works mentioned in his CV, presented at the scientific conferences organized by the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts (SANU) in Belgrade – the highest scientific and artistic institution in the country, or by Matica srpska in Novi Sad, almost equally important institution in north Serbia, are without doubt significant; Mokranjčevi dani (The Days of Mokranjac) in Negotin is a manifestation with a long tradition, attended by numerous musicologists and performers.

Complete CV with bibliography and proofs is submitted only when one applies for a position at the university. The complete documentation is then reviewed by at least three professors from the same scientific/artistic area, from different universities, in the same or higher rank than those for which a candidate applies. I don’t know who reviewed Todorovic’s work, but they all had to be full professors of Musicology or Music theory, probably from the Faculty of Musical Arts in Belgrade and to give positive review and recommendation for his appointment into the rank of full professor. I suppose that they wouldn’t give such recommendation if they weren’t sure that he was qualified for that position and academic rank.Andrija (talk) 10:37, 19 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Nobody here is saying that Todorović is not qualified for his position. However, just being a full professor of a university is not a sufficient achievement to earn him a Wikipedia article – WP:NACADEMIC bar is much higher than that, requiring research [of] significant impact; a highly prestigious academic award, or similar, and in the case of Todorović I just don't see it. Writing several papers for journal and conferences, and a textbook or a monograph is pretty par for the course for a full professor, and I don't see any "significant impact" there, even considering the full list at Serbian Wikipedia. Festivals such as Mokranjac Days in Negotin or Choir Festival in Niš (where he participated only as an art director, not as a founder or something), regardless of tradition, in my book qualify as "minor", as they are of regional importance and hardly world-rank events. And such activities (jurist or art director of a festival, writer of an occasional critic) are certainly expected for someone on a high academic position. No such user (talk) 11:35, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Keep: WP:ACADEMIC is a supplement to WP:GNG, not something that supercedes it.  GNG is met, and notability established.  There's a fair bit of puffery in style that requires copyediting, but these folks in the Liberal Arts fields are not going to some up with the same types of publications as someone in the hard sciences nor will they get the popular coverage of rockstars.  Here, we have numerous sources from third-party publications and I think this is more than adequate, particularly when you add in the national awards.  WP:GNG is met.   Montanabw (talk) 03:50, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
 * However,, I don't see GNG satisfied. When one digs deeper into the apparently impressive list of 36 references, and removes about a half of duplicated entries, it turns out to be more or less a digest of Google results about the subject – every school, festival or forum where he participated and where he got a passing mention is duly used as a reference. The sources that go any deeper into his biography aren't really independent – those are Vranje Piano Summer festival brochure, where he held a lecture about Skryabin, its rehash on the same festival, where he held a lecture on Gilels, and his faculty CV. No independent press, magazines, interviews. And I'm also concerned about Zero hits at Google books (the few hits are about another person) – even taking into account systemic bias, books in Serbo-Croatian tend to be at least indexed by Google, and there's nothing here. No such user (talk) 08:22, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I am hesitant to delete these non-English bios of folks in Eastern Europe because newspaper coverage and such may not be age-of-Google. I see a combination of academic accomplishment and musicianship.  The "how many peer reviewed papers did he publish?" standard of NACADEMIC works for the hard sciences, but is not an adequate way to rank people in the arts.  Here, we look to a multitude of different accomplishments, and even if some sources are duplicative, we err on the side of a presumption of notability until established otherwise, and here I think it's on the keep side of the line.  But, of course, you have the right to disagree with my position on this matter, I've said my piece and I'm not interested in a lot of further debate, it will go as it goes, so am also taking this off my watchlist.   Montanabw (talk) 20:44, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ‑Scottywong | prattle _ 00:13, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete: I am persuaded by the arguments of "No such user". I am not persuaded by the argument that "we err on the side of a presumption of notability until established otherwise". Even if that were true, the presumption in this case has been removed by the evidence of this academic's low rate of publication and recognition within the field of musicology. Given the paucity of this scholar's impact, the article could only be justified were there a rule on Wikipedia that every academic gets an article. That cannot possibly be the case. Syek88 (talk) 07:58, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete nothing to suggest he passes notability for academics, and the coverage of his other activities is not enough to pass GNG.John Pack Lambert (talk) 23:57, 30 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Keep. Significant press coverage. And if he is notable enough for the Serbian Wikipedia then surely he is notable enough for the English version.  We have little enough coverage of Serbia.Rathfelder (talk) 21:44, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete. meets neither WP PROF or the possible alternative  WP:MUSIC. Most of the writings discussed at great length here are just articles and reviews, with only one book.  I consider only the frWP and the deWP to have sufficient notability requirements that articles of national-relatedsubjects in them are almost certainly notable here also. (possibly nl also, but I haven't happened to notice many where it's applicable). Other languages much less so, even other major European languages.   DGG ( talk ) 01:50, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete, I am not convinced by the argument that this person has significant press coverage; while the number of sources is impressive, most if not all are either not independent, or are mere mentions of the article subject. This doesn't mean that their scholarship doesn't have value, simply that we don't have enough significant and neutral information to write a proper biography of them.  Lankiveil (speak to me) 04:13, 6 May 2017 (UTC).


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.