Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Necati Arabaci


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. Black Kite (t) (c) 12:27, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Necati Arabaci

 * – ( View AfD View log  •  )

This is a negatively and poorly sourced biography of a living person, created by an editor who has written other anti-Turkish, racist articles. I can't find verification of the information in this article in reliable sources - this article seems to be a synthesis of information found in German local newspapers/newsmagazines, none of which I would consider reliable enough to be the sole sources of a potentially controversial article, and several which may contain right-wing bias. If the only notable thing about him is a trial, per WP:ONEEVENT we shouldn't have an article about him anyway, but place any verifiable information in Prostitution in Germany if it is relevant. Claritas § 09:09, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * In your regional English Wikipedia you could read that the Augsburger Allgemeine Zeitung is a major German regional daily newspaper published since 1945. A major German regional daily newspaper is a reliable source. Playmobilonhishorse (talk) 03:02, 12 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions.  -- Favonian (talk) 11:24, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions.  -- Favonian (talk) 11:25, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions.  —Location (talk) 05:08, 12 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep or Merge Apparently he is the crime lord. So he has a major role as boss of a crime gang which leads many major crime and sentenced to 9 years in Germany. So there is no single WP:ONEEVENT, he is major actor and boss, in major events: he organised multiple crime activities while breaking many laws, hurting many people and making a serious profit.
 * Prostitution in Germany has references already. I made some improvements on reference naming and content from MAIN page
 * WP:ORPHAN is unnecessary, for WP:OR having 1 uncited claim is not worth tagging whole article [yet if german articles doesn't support text it is another issue]
 * Also please show some more effort in improving the article and notifying related wiki projects when you AFD articles. I put notification in and . AFD nominators should seriously put some more effort over improving articles.  Kasaalan (talk) 11:39, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Per WP:BEFORE, I'm not obliged to do any of that. You don't really seem to understand the fundamental points of my nominaton. Claritas § 13:26, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * There are chapters 3, 4, 9 and 10 in WP:AFD. Also notifying related projects results much more healthy debates with wider participation. We also need a translator so we can decide how strong/weak the references are. [or you if you know German] I have done all I could do for improving article. There aren't internet sources more than the creator provided. If the standalone article is not needed merge it with WP:MAIN article Prostitution in Germany. I re-added OR tag, since we cannot verify German articles, yet still not sure if there is any OR or not. By the way I completely omitted the racist article creator part before I comment, so it is another issue with the article, my mistake. Does the article references also racist or they are NPOV. Changed my vote and comments, I still support merging, with a weaker keep. Kasaalan (talk) 15:24, 11 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Kasaalan, you were warned about this level of antagonism in AfD discussions. This discussion led to this warning.  Don't go down this road again, please; discuss rationally, don't fly off the handle. Tarc (talk) 14:23, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * You can easily tell the antagonism wasn't around until you came.
 * You have been warned by other users many times about your disruptive behaviour yourself, since you insistently swear/insult to other users numerous times like a junior school kid User talk:Tarc or User talk:Tarc etc.. Be thankful that I never make any complaints about other users [e.g. your multiple insults and swears}.
 * Admin does not bother reading my comments, he is not kind to other users himself [read his talk page] so his comments are way off from reality. Yet I still followed the instructions on "no comment on notifications" as a policy. The notification is clearly NPOV. But if there is any issue with the context tell here so I change. Kasaalan (talk) 13:24, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Er, the difference is that you were directly warned by an admin, one who actually cited your atrocious behavior in the AfD closing statement, which I have never seen before. The "warnings" you refer to on my talk page come from regular editors, like you, who have had a beef with me.  Apples and oranges.  Give it a rest and move on already. Tarc (talk) 15:27, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Admins tend to make mistakes, a lot. I don't change my opinions if the user is admin or not. I respect who contributes to wikipedia, that is all. you try to start a quarrel but I will give your answers in actual talk page not here. I am not even sure if the admin have actually read your swears or know about your behavioural issues at all. Unless you bring the same issue over and over again noone has to reply your nonsense. Kasaalan (talk) 14:17, 12 July 2010 (UTC)


 * This is not the place to discuss AfD guidelines. Drop this now, please. Dougweller (talk) 14:44, 12 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete - Certainly does not pass WP:PERP, and the general notability is a bit shaky. I'd like to see some sort of notability in Western English-speaking media, rather than just local coverage of trials and such in German outlets.  Maybe this is simply a topic more suited for de.wiki rather than en. Tarc (talk) 14:23, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment — While I am still on the fence with respect to notability, there is no requirement that the sources must be in English-language media (I assume that's what you mean, as German media are certainly "western"), only that they are reliable, etc. Favonian (talk) 14:34, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I know it isn't, that was more of a personal preference/observation. And I meant to say English-speaking, not Western, my mistake.  With the sourcing now though, it just seems like this is a small-interest person whose notability doesn't rally extend beyond where the crimes were committed. Tarc (talk) 15:04, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment. I should recommend delete, but I cannot read German to determine whether or not this passes WP:V and WP:N. There are no English sources to prove notability, and I cannot find this subject in the German or Turkish Wikipedias. Location (talk) 17:36, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The first article simply reports on his sentencing, saying that "the most powerful man in Cologne", a "crime lord" was sentenced to 9 years in prison for prostitution-related offences. I have concerns however about the reliability of the sources - even with de-1 they seem a tad sensationalist. Claritas § 19:22, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I brought this up at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Germany to get a few more opinions on this. Location (talk) 05:06, 12 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete I PRODed this yesterday, but my tag was removed. My rationale was "Poorly sourced (references are only in German); doubtful notability (no article on German Wikipedia); BLP and libel concerns. Article creator has since been indefinitely blocked for disruptive editing." This looks like a worthless piece of trouble-making from a banned editor with a history of apparently racist editing and article cteation. RolandR (talk) 20:11, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It says Cologne is Germany's 4th largest city (after Berlin, Hamburg and Munich), and is the largest city both in the German Federal State of North Rhine-Westphalia and within the Rhine-Ruhr Metropolitan Area one of the major European metropolitan areas with more than 10.000.000 inhabitants ."
 * If he is the boss of mafia/organized crime in a 1.000.000 populated German city who has a certain conviction [9 years] for organised crime like Pandering (prostitution) and Human trafficking he is notable one way or another. I don't know the user. Personally I made many contributions on anti-prostitution, anti-human rights violation and anti-mafia related articles so I don't care the nation of the mafia at all.
 * However we need a german translator for verifying the references if the article creator is racist/Neo Nazi as you say, he could have mistranslate the sources deliberately. Kasaalan (talk) 13:24, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Google does a good job, and Chrome does also, I'll take a look. Dougweller (talk) 17:04, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * A quick look makes me inclined to think that he is notable, but others should try a translator as well. I think the article's creator is doing this to make a point, but nevertheless... Dougweller (talk) 17:10, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * If we all agree can someone ask some translators in Translators_available. Yet I share the concerns about the "colorful" language the racist article creator used. We should use more NPOV language. Kasaalan (talk) 14:17, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep. The references demonstrate (yes, I can read German) that his notability extends beyond a single crime, and IMO he passes the requirements for notability.  Some cleanup is required though.  Favonian (talk) 22:04, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep. I'm shocked by what I read about German regional press ("Poorly sourced: references are only in German") in this page of the regional self-centered English Wikipedia. Playmobilonhishorse (talk) 03:02, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep. I would certainly consider Focus and WDR reputable sources.imars (talk) 05:51, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I do not mean to imply that these are not reliable sources. But, as a non-German speaker, I have no way of knowing if they actually confirm the assertions made in the article. Per Verifiability, "When citing a source in a different language, without quotations, the original and its translation should be provided if requested by other editors"; in the absence of such a verifiable reference, I am reluctant to accept the assessment of the editor who added these, and has since been indefinitely blocked for "disruptive editing". RolandR (talk) 07:55, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Inasmuch as Hekerui has opined below (and I completely trust his analysis in German-sourced articles), I have no such concerns.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:12, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep. Clearly passes wiki notability standards.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:05, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep - the German articles (I read them) demonstrate notability but the article is written in a questionable tone and needs cleanup. Hekerui (talk) 08:42, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment - per Wikipedia's policy on biographies of living people, is it acceptable to keep poorly sourced controversial content on living people even if they meet WP:GNG or the like ? Claritas § 18:04, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It's poorly written together from the sources and some facts are incorrectly taken from the sources, like the birth years, but it's not poorly sourced. I admit I'm not scambling to volunteer to rewrite the thing. Hekerui (talk) 18:30, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Really ? It makes the following claims : "He owns numerous brothels in Germany and Spain, and is involved in serious human trafficking. His men entice young girls from the East to Germany, and force them into prostitution." with no cite. I can't see those in the sources. Claritas § 18:49, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That's why I quoted the policy above, that the original and a translation should be provided. As I suspected, some at least of the assertions made in the article are not verified by the sources cited; they should be removed at once. RolandR (talk) 23:42, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I added a few more sources I could find. We should call a translator from Translators_available for verifying German sources. I have my own concerns about the translations too. Kasaalan (talk) 07:48, 14 July 2010 (UTC)


 * More News sources I used google for "Necati Arabaci" Brutalen Kiez-Tätern bleibt das Gefängnis erspart Welt.de Millionengeschäfte mit Zwangsprostitution - Das europaweite Netzwerk der Bordellmafia Autoren: Klaus Wiendl und Oliver Bendixen Turkish Newspaper and in German forums there are press releases . I don't know German but his full name is "Necati Coskun Arabaci" and his nick is "General der Kölsch-Türken" We shouldn't use if the nick is used by racists or a racist slur/insult. Can anyone translate meaning of the nick what Kölsch means, I couldn't find it on dictionary. Kasaalan (talk) 07:48, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I believe that means someone (or a dialect or beer) from Cologne.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:12, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Correct. Basically a (silly) variation of Cologne-Turks. Hekerui (talk) 09:28, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * So not racist but a slang. Kasaalan (talk) 20:37, 17 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment I've checked this version of the article whether the German sources support the claims of the article.


 * The article claims: "Turkish businessman and criminal, who has been referred to as the "Boss of Bosses", who formerly lived in Cologne, Germany. In 2002 he was arrested for pimping, human trafficking, assault, extortion, weapons violations, and racketeering. In 2004 he was sentenced to nine years in prison on his charges.""


 * The Source Kölner Stadtanzeiger is a local cologne newspaper, not a politically biased newspaper. It says:


 * "einst mächtigsten Mann der Kölner Türsteher- und Rotlichtszene Necati A." translates as "formerly mightiest man of the cologne bouncer and red light disctrict scene Necati A.". "Wegen Rädelsführerschaft einer kriminellen Vereinigung, schweren Menschenhandels, Körperverletzung, räuberischer Erpressung und Zuhälterei wurde der Rotlichtpate zu neun Jahren, sein Komplize zu acht Jahren und neun Monaten Haft verurteilt." translates as "sentenced [...] for gang leader ship of a criminal association, serioully human trafficking, personal injury, extortionate robbery and procuration".


 * The article says "in 2004 the so-called Arabaci-Clan reportedly controlled the night clubs in Cologne's entertainment district, the Kölner Ringe, and his gang of bouncers reportedly befriended girls in order to exploit them as prostitutes."


 * The source is a video on You Tube, from WDR, that's a public (not private) German broadcaster. I've watched the 11 minutes. The text supports the claims of the article that gangs of bouncers controlled the Kölner Ringe disctict. However, although some names of the gang leaders are named, the name "Necati Arabaci" is not mentionened or I've missed it.


 * The article says "In 2008 he reputedly controled the "Colosseum" in Augsburg".


 * The source is "Augsburger Nachrichten" is a a local Augsburg newspaper, not a politically biased newspaper. It cites the chief of the local police, Klaus Bayerl, who says " "Die Gruppe um Arabaci bestimmt letztlich, was Sache ist.". This translates as "The Group around Arabici in the end controls what happens."


 * The article says "according to German police, several members of Arabaci's clan were sighted in Berlin, possibly trying to gain a foothold for the gang in the city's red-light scene".


 * The source is Focus (German magazine). It states "gesicherter aber sind die Erkenntnisse über eine Gruppe von Rhein und Ruhr. Dabei soll es sich um einen Ableger des berüchtigen Arabaci-Clans handeln, der über Jahre auf den Kölner Ringen und darüber hinaus das Rotlicht- und Schutzgeldwesen beherrscht hat. Ein Vertrauter des 2004 wegen Menschenhandels, Zuhälterei und Bildung einer Kriminellen Vereinigung zu neun Jahren Haft verurteilten und später in die Türkei abgeschobenen Clan-Chefs Necati „Neco“ Arabaci, 44, ist nach Informationen aus Polizeikreisen mehrfach im Bereich Oranienburger Straße polizeilich festgestellt worden.". This roughly says that a group, which is assumed to be a branch of the infamous Aragaci clan, was seen in Berlin (assumed and seen by police). It is not exactily said that they are possibly trying to gain a foothold for the gang in the city's red-light scene, but that the police assumes that there are gangs trying to gain foothold and that they are watching therefore the Arabaci people.


 * The article claims "During his detention in Germany, Arabaci reportedly plotted to kill the prosecutor, and hired the Albanian contract killer Erol from Duisburg. But the police had bugged his visiting room, and the prosecutor was given bodyguards and police protection". The article of the Kölner Stadtanzeiger supports these claims.


 * Thus, with one exection the claims of the article are supported by sources.


 * --Cyfal (talk) 13:17, 16 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete The sources support the claims of the article as I wrote above, but according to WP:PERP I don't think that someone who is sentenced to 10 years prison for racketeering is notable. --Cyfal (talk) 13:27, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Question Thank you for the translations, you put a lot of effort. At least sources translated correctly and so racism is no concern. In my view organized crime leaders in high populated cities deserves a space. yet we may always merge the content since the sources support the text.
 * Brutalen Kiez-Tätern bleibt das Gefängnis erspart Welt.de
 * Millionengeschäfte mit Zwangsprostitution - Das europaweite Netzwerk der Bordellmafia Autoren: Klaus Wiendl und Oliver Bendixen
 * ARD Report (München) forum copy paste
 * br-online.de forum copy paste


 * Can you also check the links and press releases in forums and tell if anything is notable. Kasaalan (talk) 20:37, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.