Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Niënor Níniel


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Túrin Turambar. Seems logical to redirect to where her story is discussed Spartaz Humbug! 22:33, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Niënor Níniel

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Can only find one reliable secondary source discussing this character in depth, the source is. We need more than this. If additional sources can be provided to demonstrate the level of coverage needed for a WP:GNG pass, I will withdraw this nomination. Hog Farm (talk) 20:21, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Hog Farm (talk) 20:21, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Science fiction and fantasy-related deletion discussions. Hog Farm (talk) 20:21, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. Hog Farm (talk) 20:21, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Keep I did find more sources:, , her image used in a journal: , and here I think more analytical than the others: . There's more to find at here Google Scholar, if necessary. Daranios (talk) 10:45, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
 * First source is a plot summary, I can only see the abstract of the second source, but I'll assume good faith on it, the image doesn't meet WP:SIGCOV, but the final source does devote a page of good analysis to her. Getting close to enough for GNG. Hog Farm (talk) 14:08, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
 * About 3, sorry, I cannot actually see more here either. But I found several more which may not have very lengthy passages on Nienor, but provide facts outside plot summary: A Companion to J.R.R. Tolkien has something on the development history of the character. The Power and Purpose of Names and Naming in Tolkien’s The Children of Húrin also talks about this, and in addition about how the two names define/change the character. A Kinship of Grief - Oedipus in the Theban Plays and Middle Earth only has a little bit about Nienor, but compares her with both Jokaste and Oedipus. Daranios (talk) 19:28, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if the latter two are reliable: they look like school papers. I'm hoping there will be more participation in this AfD, so others can have a look at this, too. I'll place a notice at the Middle-earth Wikiproject, maybe somebody there'll have some print sources, too. Hog Farm (talk) 20:37, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 03:27, 10 May 2020 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Barkeep49 (talk) 03:07, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete. Tolkien Encyclopedia does not have a dedicated entry on this person (the name appears only in passing in few entries, with no in-depth discussion of him). I can access and I find coverage there to be a passing mention too. In both cases the mentions are plot-summary related, no analysis.  The coverage in  seem to be limited to a single sentence, although the fact that the absract/keywords list three spelling variants of the subject's name don't help (I did CTRL+F for all 3 and found a single sentence in body, so I don't know what here is supposed to be "more analytical" than in the other sources; well, ok, "In the stories of M orwen, the long-suffering wife of H urin, of their daughter Niennor, and of their kinsw om an Aerin, Tolkien departs from the epic pattern of silence about w om en's lives", the sentence is analytical, but it hardly in=depth when it comes to this character.  is a review of a book A Companion to J. R. R. Tolkien, I don't see the subject discussed in the review, if it is mentioned in the book itself please tell us what chapter/etc (but incidentally the book is notable and I'll stub it shortly). The coverage in  (EXPLORATIONS: The Journal of Undergraduate Research and Creative Activities for the State of North Carolina, seems to be peer reviewed, but the author is by default an undergrad, and I wonder who does the peer review - faculty, or grad students?) seems to be extensive, but limited to a plot summary, I see very little analysis of the character's significance. And re  (Quest multidisciplinary journal of humanities & social sciences) may be borderline reliable as a minor but not predatory (I think) journal, but the discussion there is very short again, literary half a sentence saying that the character is "derived from elements in Sigurd the Volsung, Oedipus, and the Finnish Kullervo". I think this last source is the most analytical one, coupled with the other quoted, and we seriously have to ask ourselves - is half the sentence of analysis in two sources sufficient for an encyclopedic article? Not a single source we found is in-depth when it comes to analysis, all we get is plot and two half-sentences. I think the two analytical sources that mention her in passing may be good to be quoted in some larger article, even a list of characters, where in addition to the plot summary we can include two sentences of analysis based on those, but I don't think she merits a dedicated stand-alone article based on those two half-sentences.   --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  01:46, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * About Tolkien Sidelined: Constructing the Non-Combatant in The Children of Hurin: The quoted sentence on p. 95 is only the first, not the only treatment of Niënor Níniel, here mostly spelled Niënnor. It continues on p. 98, and get's into more analysis in to following pages. 99: "Niennor is another study of the lives of women during wartime. ..." "To understand Tolkien's grounding for his handling of Morwen, Aerin, and Niennor, and for that matter his insightful portrayal of Eowyn's frustration at her situation, a turn to some of the shaping events in his life, however little he may have approved of such approaches, proves instructive." Then the author goes on until p. 104 about the women in Tolkien's life during wartime, not mentioning the fictional characters by name again, but the author did relate to them in the quoted introductory sentence. Then he talks about Tolkien's own fate and relates it to these female figures, finishing in p. 108: "One hears echoes [...] of Niennor's desperate wish either to keep the man she loves from danger or to die with him [in a quoted letter by Tolkien]. Tolkien shows that these women have no more, and no less, wisdom, virtue, or insight than any other human being in difficult circumstances, but he also cannot exempt them from the suffering of war." And the article goes on another paragraph about Tolkiens view of these women collectively. So even if the Niennor's name appears not at every turn, there's still a lot of analysis (which is not in the Wikipedia article yet). Daranios (talk) 20:46, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
 * About A Companion to J. R. R. Tolkien (thanks for creating that article): I was referring to the book itself, sorry for causing confusion. Nienor Niniel gets a short mention in "The Lays of Beleriand (1985)" p. 150 with a remark about the name's aliteration. The important chapter is "Tolkien’s “Great Saga”: A “Long Defeat” That May or May Not Include a “Final Victory”", p. 154-159. That chapter calls the story of Hurin and Nienor central and "Tolkien's "Great Saga". It further gives details about the development of the text over time, including a very different ending and that endings implications. So that's all not plot-summary. Please also note that Nienor is sometimes not called by name but together with Turin as "children of Hurin". That phrase appears many times in the book, but usually only as the title of the poem. Lastly, on p. 476 the book cites another source that Turin and Niniel are one of only four couples "whose love gets much space" in Tolkien's work. Daranios (talk) 21:23, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, not bad, but I'd like to see the reception/analysis section actually expanded to see if there is really more to be said than 2-3 sentences. I do wonder if Chap's idea below isn't a better solution. Or perhaps both fictional character's bios could be merged into the article about the story of the children of Hurin? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:01, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I also would like to see that expansion, but that won't be done by me, as I still have, at my pace, decades worth of homework from other deletion discussions. But I think according to the guidelines of Wikipedia like WP:ARTN and WP:PRESERVE an article should not first be deleted, than improved, but the other way round. And if noone is ready to put in the time for improvement, well, that's that, the imperfect article should remain. That said, having the material here merged and redirected into a Children of Húrin article seems preferable to deletion. Though Turin is clearly the protagonist, it would befit us to not underestimate the importance of female characters. Daranios (talk) 12:26, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Allright, I postpone other things an try to add some material based on secondary sources in the forseeable future. Daranios (talk) 21:23, 23 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Redirect to Túrin Turambar which summarizes her sad story. It might be possible to Merge the brief secondary source mentions. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:24, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete article has absolutely no secondary sources.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:06, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
 * This Wikipedia guideline states that a deletion decision should be made based on existing secondary sources, not on the current state of the article. Please see above about what secondary sources exist. Daranios (talk) 21:23, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The above commentators have shown there are no substantial secondary sources that would be enough to pass GNG.John Pack Lambert (talk) 21:26, 23 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:241:301:4360:6C9A:42B2:C9B2:BEF4 (talk) 18:46, 26 May 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.