Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nicholas Kao Se Tseien


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. The article's subject is found to have been covered significantly by multiple reliable sources independent of the subject, and is therefore notable. &mdash; Coffee //  have a cup  //  beans  // 06:19, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Nicholas Kao Se Tseien

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I can't find evidence that this is a notable person. At best, this is someone who could have been (unsourced of course) the oldest Catholic priest in modern times (whatever "modern times" means) and the oldest ever person to have had a cataract operation (if that's really worth keep tracking of). Of the sources provided, one is a WP:ROUTINE obituary, the other was the GRG's excel spreadsheet of verified supercentenarian from which we should infer that his lack of listing means that he would have been somewhere on these things and three links which all seem dead links now. Ricky81682 (talk) 23:27, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Ok, I found an archived version of the Standard article here - it is Guinness who claims the oldest Catholic priest and oldest person to have a cataract operation so that helps. Still it's not clear to me that he's notable. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 23:34, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
 * But what about being the oldest Catholic priest to get a cataract operation? Surely that's notable???  E Eng  15:09, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions.  sst  ✈  00:00, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Hong Kong-related deletion discussions.  sst  ✈  00:00, 18 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Merge to wherever, if there is a wherever. Minor coverage.  E Eng  15:09, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

I saw his picture and immediately decided to adopt him! Ill try to find more material on him over the next week so please don't delete.Notgoingtotellyou (talk) 23:14, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Keep. In his latter years, there had been much biographical coverage of him. They come from various news sources in various places where he worked - 2003, Taiwanese religious source, 2005 The Standard, Hong Kong - and obituaries from major non-religious news outlets in Hong Kong: RTHK, Apple Daily. I think these add up to a WP:GNG pass with "persistent coverage" in multiple independent sources. Deryck C. 21:55, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Conditional keep The article says Guinness World Records verified that he was the oldest person to ever have cataract surgery and was the oldest priest in modern times. If that is so and they haven't stripped him of such titles, then it means they verified his birth date. If that is the case, he is one of the verified oldest men ever (and should therefore be included on that page, by the way). But if they disavowed his validation for those titles, then my vote is a delete. 66.168.191.92 (talk) 23:07, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 04:27, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep and support including him in oldest people lists as there are not enough Chinese there due to bias by GRG editors. We even have a photo! Legacypac (talk) 04:32, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment I had my doubts as to his notability, but the consensus seems to be to keep, so I will not dissent. Peterkingiron (talk) 19:30, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete for lack of notability. Just about all of the sources, both in the article and at this discussion, are local.  And they point to very little in the way of notable achievements.  Here's a machine translation of the substantive portion of the brief article in the Taiwan source:
 * A priest who does not charge, how can such a big business, but on Notre Dame as his background. Effectiveness of evangelization is staggering: in his missionary career, took 50 young church members follow the call, successful young men, as a priest five successful about 20 nuns, really admire.
 * Author lives in only two nuns who have led successful, aided the ten young men and women on the road to call, it's hard. His amazing health and old age, with "seven" as his motto: first, don't smoke. Second, does not drink alcohol. Third, not angry. Four, do not worry. Five, not eating too much. Six, in constant motion. Seven, continuous prayer.
 * That's pretty much all that can be said about the subject -- he lived a long time and inspired about 50 guys to become priests. As for the Guiness record for being the oldest priest in modern times, I checked their site and couldn't find corroboration of it.  However, the Vatican source tells us that he was (in February 2007) the oldest living priest.  That same source tells us that the oldest priest in modern times was Alvaro Fernandez, who died in 1998.  Fernandez doesn't have an article here, and neither should the subject.  NewYorkActuary (talk) 22:16, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
 * As far as I understand, the Guinness World Records website is not a complete searchable database of every record they've ever recognised. The comparison with Alvaro Fernandez amounts to Other stuff which isn't a good argument in AfD. Deryck C. 21:10, 31 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep per 's excellent research. The major newspaper The Standard provided substantial biographical material about the subject. The article notes: "At 108 years, the person who may be Hong Kong's oldest, a priest named Nicholas Kao Se Tseien, recommends having faith, doing exercise and caring for cats as ways to live longer. What is official is that Kao, born in Fuzhou, Fujian province, on January 15, 1897, is listed in the Guinness World Records both as the oldest Catholic priest and oldest person to have a cataract operation, which he had in May. ... A resident at Lantau's Our Lady of Joy Trappist monastery for the last 32 years, Kao's gospel for a long life combines common sense and religious devotion. Eschew tobacco, intoxication, gluttony, anger and rudeness in favor of exercise, humility, charity, goodness, prayer, patience and piety. ... Kao, one of four brothers, converted to Catholicism at age 18 while attending a Fuzhou school run by Spanish Dominican friars. His Buddhist father, a school teacher, was 'very open- minded,' Kao recalled with a smile, 'and let me do it.' Members of his family later followed his example and were baptized as Catholics. Though trained as a teacher and studying law at night, Kao decided to become a priest after the sudden death of a dear friend, a Spanish friar. In a life that has bridged three centuries, Kao said he is fortunate to have lived through 10 popes and two Chinese emperors and to have voted for Sun Yat Sen as president of China in 1912. ... When pressed on what 'knife accident' he escaped from, he said it was an operation for colon cancer at age 107." There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Nicholas Kao Se Tseien to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 07:00, 31 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep. If someone can be on Wikipedia for formerly being the world's smallest/tallest/*insertsuperlativehere* person, so can this man. Provided, of course, that verifiable sources can be found. 8bitW (talk) 19:45, 31 January 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.