Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nikos Tatasopoulos (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. As a regular closing admin at AFD I really should comment that battleground behaviour in AFDs is extremely disruptive especially when the perpetrators appear to be inventing their own inclusion criteria. No-one has accepted the additional sources provided and the consensus based on policy is clear once all the childish argumentation and name calling has been excluded Spartaz Humbug! 03:09, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Nikos Tatasopoulos
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log )

I cannot find sufficient RS coverage or other indicia of notability of this singer. Tagged for notability since 2010. The result at the prior AfD was no consensus, with the closer indicating "This has been a poorly-attended debate ... Please note that in the circumstances, it will be in order to list this at AfD again in early course." Epeefleche (talk) 20:20, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.  —I, Jethrobot drop me a line 20:40, 30 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I would probably go with weak keep. However, I found text that was copied from the subject's website with only trivial changes, so I have tagged with g12. Safiel (talk) 21:10, 30 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep. This recently survived AfD. I have deleted the identified copyvio. There is an excellent reference listed in the article which is in the Greek language that has been written by a Greek-American journalist who writes for "Voice of America". There is no rational reason to delete this article. The only reason that the last AfD was "no consensus" was because the recommended deletion was not withdrawn after the excellent reference was introduced. However, the reference was not criticised. It is a good reference that enables this article to meet WP:GNG. In fact, Epeefleche commended me on my research (and it wasn't easy finding that reference).  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 22:52, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
 * As I said at the time of the initial AfD, I wasn't sure that the media group article that Nipso points to was an RS. I'm now convinced it is not.  The owner of the media group that created that article is the web designer for the subject of this article  -- see Athina Krikeli.  That's a clear COI, as the coverage is not "independent". And in any event, that would not provide us with sufficient coverage under GNG.--Epeefleche (talk) 05:33, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Can't argue with that. Obviously she isn't taking commissions off his gigs but she clearly cared enough about the subject to set him up with a website. Whether or not she was paid for doing that it still indicates a "friendly" connection. However, the author of the article is also notable in her own right (and does not rely on publishing websites for a living).  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 09:45, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Regardless, have since added a large number of useful references so that the article meets WP:MUSICBIO.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 01:13, 7 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete Doesn't meet WP:GNG. Aw, did this poor AfD get neglected last time?  I'll give it some much needed attention!  I've just checked out the above websites with Google translate. Here is what I see (translated from Greek):
 * a brief paragraph bio.
 * a music page that doesn't qualify as an independent source.
 * this article is essentially about his father, not Nikos. Also, WP:NOTINHERITED.
 * extremely brief bio on what he plays and his "age 3" claim to fame.
 * Aaaaand thanks to Epeefleche, the PDF file from the publishing media group is not independent and is therefore not a suitable, third-party reference.
 * Sorry, but these references just won't cut it for notability standards.. I, Jethrobot drop me a line 06:26, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Have added three more references. Another concert in Athens. Another concert in Washington. Another and separate appearance on the national and international Greek television channel ERT. This article meets WP:MUSICBIO.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 01:14, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Greece-related deletion discussions.  — I, Jethrobot drop me a line 06:27, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions.  — I, Jethrobot drop me a line 06:28, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep - it sounds like you feel that the article that is mostly about his father is notable, and since I do not find Wikipedia to have an independent article on the father, the content can comfortably reside within this article. Keep it, refactor it. -- Avanu (talk) 07:02, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I really don't understand how any of this argument amounts to a keep for this article. Could you please explain?  Stuff about his dad isn't the point of this discussion. I, Jethrobot drop me a line 07:06, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * If you find the dad to be notable, then this is the closest thing to an article for him that Wikipedia has. Simple. Keep this and refactor it. -- Avanu (talk) 07:10, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't find the father to be notable. Even if I did, that's not a reason to keep the current article. I, Jethrobot</b> drop me a line 07:15, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment. The father is notable because he had a number one hit on the Greek charts in the 1950s and he got in to the top ten several times. The reason to keep the article is that Nikos Tatasopoulos has been in the charts with a large number of famous Greek singers but the only documentation available to prove it is what you find on CDs and the websites of commercial CD vendors (and ofcourse the musician's own website). Nikos Tatasopoulos has played in a number of concerts, some televised internationally, and some as a soloist, some of these have been documented independently.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 09:19, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Agree w/Jeth. If the father had a wp article, and if there were RS-supported material in this article, one could look to delete this page and move any such RS-supported material to the father's wp article (what we would call a "merge").  But the father does not have a wp article.  And IMHO, we don't have the requisite RS material to support notability here.  Nor has Avanu indicated/demonstrated RS coverage of the subject of this AfD sufficient to obviate deletion.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:20, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, then I'll give you a reason. I was originally just using the reason *you* provided. This guy is a world-traveling bouzouki player.  We have reliable evidence of that. How many of those are there?  Seriously, unless you have a reason to doubt this, (and there is clear evidence that he travels and is talented and is the son of a talented person) then he's notable just for his uniqueness.  Lacking tons of links isn't the standard for deletion of content.  I've *never* met one bouzouki player in my life and the only really notable thing I know of regarding bouzouki players is the Monty Python Cheese Shop skit. So unless you can find a lot of evidence that bouzouki in general is commonly covered and Reliably Sourced per your implied standards, we ought to either delete any reference to bouzouki, or just climb off the douche horse and fix the article and let a real expert finish it out later.  This is not a BLP concern, and it is written in a fairly neutral style.  Unless your day isn't complete without a deletion to mark on the board, get a Greek friend, have some baklava, discuss the bouzouki, and move on. -- Avanu (talk) 07:34, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Admittedly, I like Monty Python and I like that skit. And yes, lacking tons of links (i.e. sources that are available either on the article or accessible otherwise) is a criteria for deletion.  After searching for them (which I've done, and I have looked for his name in Greek and English), there's just no saving this article because it doesn't meet WP:GNG.  The fact that he plays the bouzouki is not in itself notable.  You really need to read WP:ITSA to understand where I am coming from.  The article can be written as neutral as possible and still not be notable.  Finally, you can do without the name-calling and bizzare claims that we are out to get you or something. <b style="color:green; font-family:Corbel;">I, Jethrobot</b> drop me a line 07:50, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * @Avanu. We're simply seeking to follow wp notability standards.  Simply being a world-traveling musician, without more, is not indicia of notability per wp standards.  Similarly, being the son of a person who may be notable does not count at all towards notability, under wp standards.  That has already been pointed out above; see NOTINHERITED.  While I understand that you !voted keep, your !vote is based on either a misunderstanding of wp standards for notability, or a lack of sensitivity towards them.  And yes -- "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject" is precisely the wp standard, under GNG.  We simply don't have that here, despite the energetic efforts by multiple editors to look for it.--Epeefleche (talk) 18:20, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * The article that you claim is mostly about the father is actually mostly about Nikos Tatasopoulos. The title of the article is "Nikos Tatasopoulos". The subject of the article is "Nikos Tatasopoulos" it only mentions his father because Nikos is the successor of a bouzouki soloist. The father is also notable because he had a number one hit in the Greek charts and other hits in the Greek charts.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 09:02, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Which article are you referring to? Are you talking about this article because no, it's not about Nikos.  It's about his father, John (ΓΙΑΝΝΗΣ ΤΑΤΑΣΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ). <b style="color:green; font-family:Corbel;">I, Jethrobot</b> drop me a line 17:43, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Not the same article. The article is HERE .  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 17:31, 2 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment. Here is another reference. This one is 100% independent. This is the press kit for a documentary film release. It shows a photograph with Nikos Tatasopoulos in it on p.18 and he is also credited on p.21. Surely, this is good enough for WP:GNG. I really had to dig up an Internet mine to find this one.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 14:35, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I appreciate the effort. But that's not an RS -- it is the same as a press release, which is also not an RS for purposes of notability ... it is an effort to get RSs to report something (which, at the end of the day, there is no evidence that they did).  Simlilarly, it is not the "significant coverage" that is required for GNG.  So it unfortunately fails on both counts.--Epeefleche (talk) 16:27, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * You've already got the significant coverage from the source with the interview and that source is reliable enough despite the identified conflict of interest (it was written by a top flight American journalist). This new source references a documentary film and the information it provides is that a master bouzouki player called Nikos Tatasopoulos is providing music for the documentary film biography of one of the most famous singers in Greece (of all time). It doesn't matter that it is a Press Kit. The fact is that Tatasopoulos' music is in the documentary and he is credited at the end of the documentary. It is a fine reference and contributes to WP:GNG. I think that you are getting picky. This is a musician we are talking about. The vast majority of musicians you only get to hear about when you play their CD. In this case, a large proportion of all the famous Greek singers in Greece have worked with Tatasopoulos and that is archived on all the CDs that have been produced. Has anybody bothered to write an article about it. Yes, one Greek-American journalist has interviewed him. He has also appeared on national television on numerous occasions but the archives are not available on the Internet (except for masses of U-Tube videos).  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 19:05, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
 * It is not an independent source, so it is not an RS. And in any event, one article would rarely meet GNG, even if it were an RS, rather than published by the media company that was paid to set up the person's website.  Press releases -- especially ones that are not picked up by the RSs to which they are sent -- also fail to count towards notability.  GNG is exceedingly clear on both of these points ("'Independent of the subject' excludes works produced by those affiliated with the subject.... press releases are not considered independent.").--Epeefleche (talk) 00:20, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The press kit for the documentary film is independent of Nikos Tatasopoulos without question. It is an independent source. The fact that he has participated in the making of the documentary by playing the bouzouki is evidenced in the credits of the documentary film. That is a reliable source.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 01:30, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Press kits and press releases are certainly not RSs for notability purposes. Please read our rules on reliable sources, including Verifiability and WP:SELFPUBLISH. The fact that he is included in a press kit, of all things, is not evidence at all that RSs thought him worthy enough to be "noticed" by covering him in RS coverage.  Our notability guidelines take zero note of press releases and the like -- see WP:SPIP, which states that "'Wikipedia is not a promotional medium. Self-promotion, paid material ... and product placement are not valid routes to an encyclopedia article. The barometer of notability is whether people independent of the topic itself (or of its manufacturer, creator, author, inventor, or vendor) have actually considered the topic notable enough that they have written and published non-trivial works of their own that focus upon it – without incentive, promotion, or other influence by people connected to the topic matter. Neutral sources are also needed to guarantee a neutral article can be written—self-published sources cannot be assumed neutral; see Wikipedia:Autobiography and Wikipedia:Conflict of interest for discussion of neutrality concerns of such sources. Even non-promotional self-published sources, like technical manuals ... are still not evidence of notability as they do not measure the attention a subject has received.... routine news coverage such as press releases, public announcements... is not significant coverage.'"--Epeefleche (talk) 01:39, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * You are ignoring the documentary film itself which credits this musician. I have also added an article that mentions him in an independent American newspaper.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 16:09, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Mentions or credits aren't going to be enough. The subject needs to have significant coverage. <b style="color:green; font-family:Corbel;">I, Jethrobot</b> drop me a line 17:00, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * It is enough to meet WP:MUSICBIO.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 17:12, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Close examination of the policy states that this is only the case if the work of media is notable. <b style="color:green; font-family:Corbel;">I, Jethrobot</b> drop me a line 17:51, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The concert was broadcast internationally via ERT. The recording of the concert was also used for the film documentary. The documentary film itself has been constantly mentioned, and talked about unendingly on Greek television. Isn't international broadcast enough? The documentary film was shown at the 12th Thessaloniki Film Festival and noted on their website (another independent and reliable source). The documentary film has an international concert tour with the important musicians including Tatasopoulos. Moreover, I have added more references to more concerts and to a seminar that Tatasopoulos conducted in New York.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 23:08, 5 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment. Moreover, he meets more than one criteria in WP:MUSICBIO:
 * - Has performed music for a work of media that is notable, e.g. a theme for a network television show, performance in a television show or notable film, inclusion on a notable compilation album. [Not just "My Sweet Canary" documentary film, since he has appeared on national network television shows.]
 * - Is in an ensemble which contains two or more independently notable musicians, or is a musician who has been a member of two or more independently notable ensembles. [Not just the "My Sweet Canary" concert tour but at a number of nightclubs in Greece and the United States. The clubs in Greece are vastly superior to those in the United States by a large margin.]
 * - Has received non-trivial coverage in independent reliable sources of an international concert tour, or a national concert tour in at least one sovereign country. [Not just "My Sweet Canary" but "My Sweet Canary" is enough to meet WP:MUSICBIO.]  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 17:09, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry if I missed this above, but where is the third-party evidence for him performing on national network television shows, him performing in Greek / U.S. clubs? And I'll also contest that the documentary is not especially notable.  Has it been the subject of reviews or commentary? <b style="color:green; font-family:Corbel;">I, Jethrobot</b> drop me a line 17:41, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The "My Sweet Canary" concert at the 12th Thessaloniki Film Festival (which was sponsored by EPT) was broadcast on EPT (national Greek television, it is the main Greek television channel and is broadcast internationally by satellite and across the Internet). But he has also appeared on other Greek television shows that I cannot find references for. But there are enough references for the "My Sweet Canary" concert. And Rosa Eskenazi is a big deal in Greece and in Israel. The concert orchestra comprised top musicians from Greece, Turkey, and Israel. Then there is the American Ellopia TV concert that I have not added references for because Epeefleche would treat that as a conflict of interest (but it is still a broadcast television concert). [Here is the link for the concert in Thessaloniki. http://tdf.filmfestival.gr/default.aspx?lang=en-US&loc=8&page=865&EventID=64]  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 17:48, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with Jeth and Zjarri here, whose comments are based on the wp criteria. Nipson -- we don't consider a subject notable for wp purposes if the company that creates its website also writes an article about it, or if it is mentioned in a press release or press kit, or in general if it lacks -- as he certainly does, given your extraordinary efforts to find it -- appropriate indicia of significant coverage by independent sources.  If a subject's notability were measured by the word's written in an effort to make him notable, he would qualify, but all that your efforts have managed to do is convince me that he completely lacks the requisite significant RS coverage, despite yeoman efforts having been engaged in to find them.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:20, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * First of all, the Thessaloniki Film Festival is an independent website and there is no conflict of interest. Second of all, the Thessaloniki Film Festival wrote that webpage and the musician did not. The Thessaloniki Film Festival webpage is both an independent and reliable source. The sponsor of the Film Festival is ERT, who broadcast the concert nationally and internationally. Terrestrially, via satellite and via the Internet. Moreover, this was not just one concert (it was one in an international tour). Moreover, Tatasopoulos has participated in a large number of concerts and in some instances as a soloist. I don't think that you have contributed anything at all with your last paragraph.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 00:39, 5 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete and btw the criterium you're debating about is succinct i.e as that single appearance is his only claim to notability the article should be deleted or if there is an appropriate article it could be redirected there.-- — ZjarriRrethues —  talk 22:31, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * He has made many notable appearances but only one documented appearance is required to meet WP:MUSICBIO. It is documented independently by the Thessaloniki Music Festival on their website. It is not a press kit and there is no conflict of interest. Moreover, the concert was broadcast internationally by EPT which is the main terrestrial television channel in Greece and broadcasts internationally by satellite and on the Internet.
 * Have added references for two more independent concerts. One concert where he is one of only two musicians plus the singer. Another concert where the lead singer is Katy Garbi which took place in Washington, United States. And another reference for another appearance on the ERT television channel. And a photographic record of a seminar that he gave in New York.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 01:07, 5 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete as per several of the above comments. Safiel (talk) 02:10, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
 * WP:JUSTAVOTE  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 00:29, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
 * That's JUSTANESSAY. With the opinion of one or more Wikipedia contributors. Essays may represent widespread norms or minority viewpoints. The essay is not a Wikipedia policy.  I think it is silly -- "per the above comments" is just as good as re-stating in slightly different words the words of prior contributors.  Safiel clearly put in thought here -- he originally !voted weak keep, but upon further examination of the above comments, changed his !vote to that of the 4-2 majority here that favors deletion.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:48, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Nonsense. It requires no consideration at all to say "as per several of the above comments".  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 23:13, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
 * That's your personal view. You are entitled to it.  Though it seems to be be somewhat belied by the fact that this editor expressed a "week keep" leaning originally, and then -- after your 18 above comments, and those of others -- revised his view to suggest (as most editors here have) that this article should be deleted -- based on the above comments.  While I understand that you very much believe that this article should be kept, 4 of the 5 other editors who have opined on this page so far have a different view.--Epeefleche (talk) 01:06, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Only 2 editors disagree. One editor is WP:JUSTAVOTE without reasoning. One is the nominator.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 20:55, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Four editors have indicated delete -- Jethrobot, Epeefleche, Safiel, and ZjarriRrethues. The editor who you take to task clearly considered matters (see my comments above), and you are just quoting an essay that is an opinion of an editor and not policy.  Further, the only editor who agreed w/you on "keeping" this, did so based on a mistaken assumption and with unclear reasoning -- see above.  You have been tendentious -- over 20 comments at this AfD -- and I and others have spent a great deal of time trying to respond  to you, but the consensus here seems somewhat clear.  Adding more non-RS sourcing and COI sourcing does not increase the notability of this article's subject.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:00, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Only you and Jethrobot have made any effort to justify a deletion. You are the nominator of the AfD. Zjarrirethues has added nothing other than "succinct". Safiel's comment is WP:JUSTAVOTE and Zjarrirethues' is little more. None of you have considered the new references or the additional work that I have done.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 22:09, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I've already responded to you. You're just repeating yourself now.  I'll sign off (unless you make further mis-statements such as the # of delete !voters), as I feel I am unable to reach you.  Best.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:20, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Your POV.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 22:27, 6 July 2011 (UTC)


 *  Note to closing Admin . I have more than doubled the number of references on this article and the majority of references have not been discussed above. I request an extension so that this article can be more fully discussed. This musician clearly meets WP:MUSICBIO and the sources are adequate in this regard.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 21:15, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
 * You've made 21 comments already. The sources that you added are, in the consensus view of the commentators, not sufficiently supportive of the notability of the subject.  I think you've had ample opportunity for comment, and four of the five editors responding to your comments have not been swayed by them (as conversation developed, one even changed his !vote from supporting you to supporting deletion).  I think its time to put down the stick.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:04, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
 * They have not considered all the references that I have added. I have done a great deal of work to this article since they commented.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 22:07, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Having twice as many non-RS refs does not improve the notability of the article. As discussed, your adds do not add to notability.  We do not keep an article based on the amount of work put in, but based on the RS refs discovered, which here are insufficient.  It is the normal course that articles are worked on during AfDs.  As Safiel's !vote indicated, the discussion has crystallized the paucity of non-RS refs, not the opposite way.  This sounds as though you simply don't like the fact that 80% of the editors reading your above comments have a view that differs from yours.  As I said, we've entertained and responded to your comments; but at some point .... --Epeefleche (talk) 22:11, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Just calling them non-RS does not make them so. 2 editors is only 50 per cent.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 22:13, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

* Strong and speedy delete If this singer was a Mongolian yak herder who was famous only in a particular area of Mongolia and had been featured in The Yak Gazette (in lead linotype) would that make it any clearer? Nikos is not nearly sufficiently notable in the English-speaking world (read: you need an electron microscope to pick up English-language evidence he even exists) to merit inclusion in an English encyclopedia. Delete per Notability (music) and WP:ARTSPAM. Greg L (talk) 22:53, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
 * He is not comparable to a Mongolian yak herder. He is an internationally renowned musician who has played in many concerts, who has played as a soloist, who has been televised on more than one television channel, who has taken part in a world concert tour. Nikos Tatasopoulos is an American-born citizen who is particularly well known in the United States and in Greece and who has played internationally. Your comments are completely off-target. You need to adjust the magnification on your electron microscope since there are more than 600 hits on English Google and 296 hits on Greek Google. Moreover, "failing to satisfy the notability guidelines is not a criterion for speedy deletion" (not that this article fails to satisfy the notability guidelines").  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 23:05, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmmm… Let me do a Google search on myself in just the context of fuel cells (a prior career of mine). One moment… Well, there you go! I get 875 English-language Google hits. And I’m not notable. All you can squeeze out of Nikos is 600 hits?? Forget it. Not even close. Greg L (talk) 23:27, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
 * He beats you when you combine the Greek Google hits.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 00:13, 7 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Strong and speedy delete The English-language version of Wikipedia is directed to a general-interest, English-speaking readership. Indeed, Notability (music) says a musician “may” be notable if it meets any of certain criteria, and amongst those criteria is that the artist Has had a single or album on any country's national music chart. But the operative word here is “may” (be notable). Common sense applies at all times on Wikipedia (Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy) and the totality of the picture as regards Nikos is clear here: he is not in the least bit notable for an English-speaking readership. If this singer was a Mongolian yak herder who was famous only in a particular area of Mongolia and had been featured in The Yak Gazette (set in lead linotype) would that make it any clearer? Nikos is not nearly sufficiently notable in the English-speaking world (read: you need an electron microscope to pick up English-language evidence he even exists) to merit inclusion in an English encyclopedia. Delete per Notability (music) and WP:ARTSPAM and WP:NOTSOAPBOX. Greg L (talk) 23:21, 6 July 2011 (UTC) P.S.  Nipsonanomhmata’s argumentative and aggressive style on this page is not advancing his cause. His argument that Nikos is is particularly well known in the United States is not supported by the citations in the current version of the article upon which I formed my opinion. Sorry. Greg L (talk) 23:21, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Point your electron microscope in this direction:
 * He has collaborated with singers and musicians from around the world including Malika Zarra from Morocco. Nikos Tatasopoulos plays bouzouki in the film documentary "My Sweet Canary", and the international concert tour of the film, which is about the life of Rosa Eskenazi. In 2006, he appeared on Greek national television channel ERT1, which is televised internationally, in the programme "Μουσικές αντιθέσεις". On February 10, 2008 he played in a concert in Washington, United States with the singer Katy Garbi. In New York he gave a seminar on "Bouzouki:Style and Technique" (which are all referenced in the article). You have not considered that he meets WP:MUSICBIO.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 23:35, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
 * So English-speaking readers are all fascinated with Nikos, you say? Let’s cut to the chase about your allegation: How many readers are sufficiently interested in this guy to read this article. Virtually no editing was being done to this article in January of 2010. It got about three hits per day in January; the lowest hit count I have ever stumbled across. Ever. Now I wish this article doesn’t get deleted so I can link to it as an example of a über non-notable article. Even Gumby, a stop-action claymation animation from the 1950s has 300 times more interest than there is for ol’ Nikos. Like I wrote: this isn’t even close. Greg L (talk) 23:49, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Are you alleging that he does not meet WP:MUSICBIO?  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 23:53, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I’m saying the article should be deleted for all the reasons stated above in my 23:21, 6 July 2011 post. The Wikipedia article traffic statistics bear out that the article enjoys record-setting levels of disinterest throughout this entire pale blue dot. Even at modern prices of 8.5¢ per gigabyte for mass storage, this article is a waste of server space. Moreover, not deleting this article would just encourage more spamming of en.Wikipedia. Are you this guy’s mommy or something? Are you getting paid for this article? I don’t get it; this isn’t even close. Three hits a day across the entire planet amply demonstrates that Nikos is currently a bug splat on the windshield of the entertainment world. Greg L (talk) 00:02, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I have no connection to this individual whatsoever. I do however appreciate this individual. I suggest that you take the lens cap off your electron microscope because he easily meets WP:MUSICBIO.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 00:07, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Let me know if you can find an article that receives only two hits per day and is therefore even less notable than Nikos. Greg L (talk) 00:10, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I think that you'll find that the number of hits that the Wikipedia article gets is not in the criteria of WP:MUSICBIO. Moreover, you'll find that he averaged more than 250 hits per day in the first half of June at http://stats.grok.se/en/201106/Nikos%20Tatasopoulos and the first week of July at http://stats.grok.se/en/201107/Nikos_Tatasopoulos . What are you using to clean the lens on that electron microscope? A lump of coal?  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 00:14, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Sheesh! You best pay attention to what others are writing before putting your foot in your mouth. Note in my above post dated 23:49, 6 July, I wrote Virtually no editing was being done to this article in January of 2010. Do you have any idea why I wrote that? Because you can’t measure readership levels on articles that enjoy near-zilch readership when heavy editing is occurring, such as when you are furiously pounding away on your keyboard on that article and revisiting it to admire it. Look at the current edit history of the article. What do you see there? Oceans of you editing furiously away on the article in June and July. And then you provided in your above post hits for those two months. Either you aren’t paying any attention to the facts, or you don’t care about the facts, or you don’t understand the facts, or you are misleading us. Now let’s look at the edit history of NikosTatasopoulos for April 2011 and earlier. You can see there was no editing on the article in February, March and April of 2011. Here are the readership hits for those months (which can’t discern when you are visiting only to admire the article): Feb-2011, March-2011, and April-2011. The article is of interest to hardly anyone on this planet and the artist is clearly not notable. I suggest you host your own Web site to serve as a shrine to this character; his wonderfulness escapes the rest of us and—judging by Grokstats—is 1% as fascinating as Gumby and is many thousands times less interesting to English-speaking readers than “Economy of Greece” is as of late. Greg L (talk) 01:50, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

I have been furiously editing this article for one week only. I was not furiously editing the article at the beginning of June which averaged 250 hits per day. Nor do I think that I personally am motivated enough to generate 250 hits per day (on any article). Moreover, you are missing the point altogether. What does the hit rate of a Wikipedia article have to do with the criteria for WP:MUSICBIO? Hit rate means nothing. Moreover, I think you'll find that the hit rate of most articles increases when they are put up for AfD as more editors than usual take a peek at the article whether or not they comment in the AfD. And this article has been put up for AfD twice in a month. If you are going to comment on an article you should do so objectively and stick to the criteria that matters. Instead of inventing criteria that have no bearing whatsoever. Nipson anomhmata  (Talk) 10:56, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

OK. I already addressed your link—and even that specific section of Notability (music) in my first post. But to entertain you and address that section by your sub-link alias (WP:MUSICBIO) again, here’s what this article has to do with WP:MUSICBIO: The English-language version of Wikipedia is directed to a general-interest, English-speaking readership. Indeed, WP:MUSICBIO says a musician “ may ” be notable if it meets certain criteria. But the operative word here is “may” (be notable); all that stuff are suggestions of criteria upon which one can look towards for some evidence of notability. Common sense applies at all times on Wikipedia (Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy) and the totality of the picture as regards Nikos is clear here: he is not in the least bit notable for an English-speaking readership. How do we know this? As hard as you’ve worked on the article despite the challenges of two AfDs, the current version of the article with all those Greek-language citations just drive home the fact that he is not the least bit notable amongst an English-language readership. It’s all Greek-Greek-Greek down there. And on the subject of “Greek”… Do tell, is there even a Greek language Wikipedia article on this guy? Entering Νίκος Τατασόπουλος into the Hellenic Wikipedia produces this “Did you mean” search result (English translation). If there is such an article, that’s where this article belongs. If there isn’t, that’s where this article belongs. If there isn’t an article on this guy in the Greek-language version, he doesn’t belong in any language-version of Wikipedia. Importantly too here, the Grokstats hit rates for Feb-2011, March-2011, and April-2011 prove that the world-wide, English-language interest in this character is zilch. I dare say that the internal Wikipedia links pointing to that article probably generate the majority of the three or four hits per day the article is seeing. How many ways are there to demonstrate that this is probably the least notable English-language subject one could imagine? I thought Sewer cover in front of Greg L’s house had set the record for most trivial article. To not heed common sense here would be to cave to the following specious arguments (from Wikilawyering):


 * Abiding by the letter of a policy or guideline while violating its spirit or underlying principles;
 * Asserting that the technical interpretation of Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines should override the underlying principles they express;
 * Misinterpreting policy or relying on technicalities to justify inappropriate actions.

That’s my position; we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I wish you luck and happy editing with your other articles. Greg L (talk) 15:08, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Yet another excuse to side-track the argument. Still harping on about how many hits the article gets when it is not a criterion of WP:MUSICBIO. Introducing a new argument about the lack of English language citations. Allow me to enlighten you as to how many English language citations there are for this article (the scientific way):

Current (as at 7th July 2011 at 3:45pm EST).

References (in actual order):

1.	Greek 2.	English 3.	Greek 4.	English 5.	English 6.	Greek 7.	Greek 8.	English 9.	English 10.	Greek 11.	English 12.	Greek 13.	English 14.	English 15.	English 16.	Greek

External links

1.	English 2.	English 3.     Hebrew

9 out of 16 references are in the English language (that’s 56.25%) 7 out of 16 references are in the Greek language (that’s 43.75%).

When including the external links:

11 out of 19 references are in the English language (that’s 57.89%) 7 out of 19 references are in the Greek language (that’s 36.84%) 1 out of 19 references are in the Hebrew language (that’s 5.26%).

No surprise there since the musician is an American-born citizen. The stats say "English-English-Greek" (approximately) and not "Greek-Greek-Greek". Nipson anomhmata  (Talk) 19:56, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Nip -- Five of the six editors who have responded to your comments have !voted delete. At some point, you might want to consider the community view on the notability of this subject.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:38, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Always with the wise-guy commentary. Greg L is completely out of his depth. He can't even tell what criteria are required for a musician and is inventing his own.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 23:03, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Hey, Epeefleche (aka “wiseguy”). Since there are more English-language Google hits on me than this bouzouki-playing Nikos dude (875 to 600), will you do a Wikipedia article on me? I’m more apparently more notable than he is. But I’m too bashful to write my own and I know you’ll do me justice. You can start with my contributions to a new way to make fuel cells and can then touch upon my exploits setting off big-ass oxy-acetylene balloon bombs as July 4th noise makers. I was telling the story in a machine shop of this monster balloon I set off (actually a beach ball) and some machinist dude remembered it even though it happened eight years prior. He lived twelve blocks away from ground zero (a six-foot diameter blast zone scrubbed clean down to hard-packed earth). He said “My wife and I were asleep when there was this hellacious explosion and a painting fell off the wall.” I’m apparently legendary. That beats this bouzouki stuff any day.
 * (Typed with both hands ‘cause neither got blowed off yet) Greg L (talk) 00:14, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.