Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Norman Milliken


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. Article's subject is found to be notable. &mdash; Coffee //  have a cup  //  beans  // 12:15, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Norman Milliken

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Fails WP:BIO. This person has received little coverage, and there is little evidence this person made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record. Magnolia677 (talk) 01:20, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Retain WP:BIO This person is referenced in 3 different books(one contemporary and 2 historical) and founded a community  that is named after him,  as are several public schools, public parks, a GO train station,  Milliken Mills etc. He is a notable figure in colonial canada not a major historical figure but in my view he clearly meets the notability criteria. He has to be understood and assessed in the context of a small society colonial  Canada Unionville (User Talk) 8:49, 3 March 2015  — Preceding undated comment added 01:51, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Maine-related deletion discussions. lavender|(formerlyHMSSolent)|lambast 02:17, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ontario-related deletion discussions. lavender|(formerlyHMSSolent)|lambast 02:17, 3 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep. Some of the citations are malformed but fixable and clearly demonstrate the subject's notability. See also AfD for Benjamin Milliken Fiachra10003 (talk) 14:32, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep per Fiachra10003. Notability is established. Finding sources for someone who lived hundreds of years ago is never perfect, but this article does a good job.--TM 23:05, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
 * - So he "established Milliken Corners", and then a community formed around it. A city named "Foo" doesn't automatically make "Fred Foo" notable.  I still fail to see this person's "contribution that is part of the enduring historical record".  Magnolia677 (talk) 23:42, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
 * With the greatest respect, I think you're overthinking the phrase "widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record". "Widely recognized" is very subjective, even for present day subjects. When you are considering a historical biography in the context of a smaller population and a far smaller range of published sources, "widely recognized" becomes of little meaning.  "Enduring historical record": the sources, by definition, establish an "enduring historical record". Note also that if the WP:BIO criteria are not met, WP:BIO refers you to WP:GNG.  Fiachra10003 (talk) 15:44, 4 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep. Notability does not diminish with time, and this person was obviously notable during the period in which still-existing towns, schools, etc., were being named after him. Pax 07:59, 4 March 2015 (UTC)


 * - Again, there is nothing in the article to suggest that any of the many places named "Milliken" are named in his honour. All the article states is that Milliken built "a hotel/tavern and livery stables there".  Big deal.  And because this was a growing community, it took the name "Milliken".  The article doesn't say he went on to become mayor, or took any leadership in the development of the new community.  It appears that his only contribution to this community was his hotel.  The schools and train stations don't appear to be named in his honour; they appear to be named after the community.  If they were named after him personally, please add a reliable source stating that they were.  Without that, this is a non-notable person, and the article should be deleted.  Magnolia677 (talk) 23:31, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:30, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

the rural hamlet didnt grow incrementally new neighbourhoods were created 3 in a very short period of time for these new neighbourhoods and they could have picked any name - they picked Milliken and most importantly to address your argument Milliken MIlls Mills refers to something Look at the name of the High School in the See Also section - Milliken Mills High School ie named after his lumber mill which hasnt operated in 150 years The fact it is named after him is evidenced by the name Milliken Mills given to one of the three neighbourhoods he was a mill owner so yes it is named in his honour just like the original hamlet named Milliken Corners Under your approach to notability there are no notable people in smaller societies Wikipedia is filled with articles about musicians with no staying power and porn stars and they are notable because this guy is making it into books 150 years after his death There are sufficient independent references to support this entry under the notability criteria and I don't understand your objection Unionville (talk)
 * The communities of Milliken Mills and Milliken are new suburban residential neighbourhoods developed in the 70's and 80's
 * Again, please provide a reliable source to support your claim that all this stuff is named for him personally. If "Fred Foo" started a mill there, and the community of "Fooville" grew around it, it would be WRONG to claim that "Foo Public School" and "Foo Train Station" are named in honour of Fred Foo, but that is exactly what you are claiming...that Norman Milliken is notable and has all this stuff named after HIM PERSONALLY.  I've asked you to provide a reliable source to support your claim and you instead you provide porn star analogies.  Without reliable sources, Norman Milliken is as notable as Fred Foo.  Thank you.  Magnolia677 (talk) 04:17, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

He was a successful businessman and lumber mill operator(the word appears in the references) in a small society with a small population and a prominent figure. He is mentioned briefly but numerously in many independent secondary sources. Finally I would appreciate if you could explain your notation to the last reference in the article. Isn't a website operated by a public district school board in a major metropolitan area,  presumably written  by educators,  an adequate source of information in Wikipedia?--Unionville (talk) 14:39, 6 March 2015 (UTC)  Unionville (talk)
 * Keep. The author's citations (1 -4) support the assertion of places named after Norman Milliken. Further, Toronto's prominence leaves places like Markham in a shadow and diminish the contemporary view of their historic importance. People who played roles in commerce and the military (among many other important contributions) at this time in Southern Ontario's history should be included here.FlettIan (talk) 21:26, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The references say nothing which even remotely contributes to this person's notability. I looked through each one of them.  He was a Loyalist, a lumberman, and owned a bar.  THAT'S IT.  I went looking for other sources to contribute to his notability and accomplishments and came up empty.  NOTHING in the area is named after him.  Nothing.  He is already mentioned on the Milliken, Ontario article, and there's barely a line about him there...and one of the sources is an elementary school's web page!  FlettIan, I disagree with you, as I believe that people who played SIGNIFICANT roles in commerce and the military should have Wiki articles.  I also disagree that 905 is "in the shadow".  Many of us have worked hard to create articles about Toronto's outlying communities, like Elmbank, Ontario.  To water down Wiki with articles about every farmer and milkman is to diminish the project.  Magnolia677 (talk) 00:18, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Every farmer and milkman is not who Norman Milliken is. He was not a lumberjack he was a millman who operated a major lumber mill at German Mills and owned a lumber mill.  Lumber Mills were a key part of the settlement of Upper Canada and its conversion into farmland. They were substantial and important commercial enterprises of rural economies in the 19th century pioneer Upper Canada
 * Hey friend, I know you've invested a lot of time into this article, but please don't play dumb just to protect it. To suppose an elementary school conducted independent research is ridiculous.  Magnolia677 (talk) 23:54, 7 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Retain WP:BIO Someone who lives in Milliken Mills, or goes to one of the schools may legitimately want to be able to look up after whom the town was named. Deleting this information removes public knowledge of local history. Johnrpenner (talk) 17:57, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi Magnolia. The article and the subject's notability, or lack of it, doesn't turn on this reference. You have dismissed the question I posed,  which was sincere.  I have only been contributing to Wikipedia for 3 months and am still learning, slowly,  how to draft, reference, edit, appropriately reference etc. My experience of elementary teachers seems more positive than yours. Your erstwhile friend,  Unionville. Unionville(talk)--Unionville (talk) 02:43, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Indeed. But the totality of the references all seem to indicate that this person's notability can be summarized in one sentence: he was a Loyalist, a lumberman, owned a bar, and nothing in Milliken Mills is directly named after him.  This doesn't seem to cross the threshold of notability.  Magnolia677 (talk) 03:31, 11 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep If towns were named after him, he's notable.  DGG ( talk ) 07:33, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.