Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/North Kyrgyz Confederation


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. There is consensus that the sources don't support a policy-compliant article on this topic. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 20:30, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

North Kyrgyz Confederation

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Find me any authoritative scientific work by a Western or at least a Soviet author to confirm the existence of this alleged state. Half of the sources in the article are a forum where anyone can upload the article. The remaining half are scientific works that touch on the history of the Kirghiz, as tribes not united by a confederation. There is no such term as "North Kyrgyz Confederarion", the author of the article invented it himself. He was repeatedly blocked on the Russian Wikipedia for vandalism and harassment. This term is one big fiction. Kazman322 (talk) 19:27, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Kyrgyzstan-related deletion discussions. Kazman322 (talk) 19:27, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
 * To begin with, I would like to say that I was blocked on Russian Wikipedia for no reason, and then I was just starting to make edits, and what does this have to do with it? Next, "Half of the sources in the article are forums and blah blah blah" can you show me exactly which sources are forums?  And other sources (including books) are not authoritative? ,  On these two maps of the 19th century, the borders of the Buruts (Kyrgyz) are clearly visible. Foggy kub (talk) 09:30, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
 * And what do these maps prove? That on the territory of modern Kyrgyzstan (suddenly) did the Kyrgyz live? I ask you to give me a quote from any authoritative book that mentions the term North-Kyrgyz Confederation. I have always found it funny from your childish reasoning, insults and fabrications, and now you have brought mystification and delusion to the English wiki. Kazman322 (talk) 11:24, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
 * You still haven't answered my question. Foggy kub (talk) 11:38, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Dear colleague, instead of insulting my work, you would be better off finally answering my question about the sources you call "forums". I don’t know you, but you communicate with me like an old friend, please stop such a dialogue with me, otherwise I will be forced to contact the administrators about your behavior. Foggy kub (talk) 15:04, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete - I'd like someone else to double check but, as per nom, there seems to be nothing even mentioning this supposed confederation. A large amount of questionable information seems to have been created (on multiple wikis) with regards to this topic. Sgubaldo (talk) 01:28, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Mamaktul Biy I suspect is not a real figure (the book cited by the same 'Foggy kub' on commons doesn't seem to exist), this image seems to be a slightly edited version of the modern Kyrgyzstan map. Jantay batyr, Atake biy and this image also seem to fit the bill though the latter two reference a source that mentions this legitimate organisation (as per below) Sgubaldo (talk) 01:34, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Mamaktul and Jantay did exist, as I found coverage of them while writing an article for a contemporaneous figure. That said, I can't speak to the factuality of either article, as I have not edited them. Curbon7 (talk) 15:36, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I also added two maps of the 19th century to the article where there is an inscription "Buruten Kara-Kirgizen" (note, that was the name of the Kyrgyz). The map, which is on the main page, also has sources that say the border of the Kyrgyz possessions.  I would like someone from the experienced contributors to double-check the entire article for "mistakes", thanks! Foggy kub (talk) 16:24, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I, as the author of the article, can show you the required sources. For starters, you could see the maps of this confederation, which were written by German scientists back in the early 19th century.  Also in the article there are already sources confirming the existence of this state.  Chinese and Russian sources also confirm this, the article even has a painting by a Chinese artist during the reign of Emperor Qianlong. Foggy kub (talk) 04:05, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
 * "There are sources and blah blah blah." Anything more specific? Kazman322 (talk) 05:27, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Just tell me what you need? What sources are needed, I'll show you everything you need.  And the article has already been reviewed by an experienced  contributor. Foggy kub (talk) 06:32, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Curbon7 (talk) 15:40, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete Hoax. Searching up North Kyrgyz Confederation or North Kirghiz Confederation on Google Scholar brings up nothing. A search for North Kyrgyz Confederation on Google only brings up Quora and Wikipedia mirrors. The author of the page hasn't brought up any credible book or scholarly article that mentions something called the "North Kyrgyz Confederation", but has brought up a bunch of random 19th-century maps where "the borders of the Buruts are clearly visible", while conveniently ignoring the fact that they don't mention anything called the "North Kyrgyz Confederation" at all. Mucube (talk · contribs) 19:17, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
 * , . Foggy kub (talk) 07:13, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Stop throwing random books, we need specific excerpts from the text. Probably hard to understand. Kazman322 (talk) 07:34, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * In this book (the link to the electronic version contains special characters that Wikipedia does not allow. "Материалы по истории кыргызов и Кыргызстана", authors:K. Dzhusaev, A. Mokeev, D. Saparaliev, ISBN:9967-21-838-X), you can see Chinese chronicles and sources about the Kyrgyz from the 7th-19th centuries. Foggy kub (talk) 09:21, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I also found the work of the Soviet Doctor of Historical Sciences Alexander Bernshtam, I think this can already serve as a source. In this work, Alexander Bernshtam writes that in the 18th century the Kyrgyz were divided into northern and southern, the northern had a confederation called "Tagai" (I mentioned this in the article), and the southern confederation "Adygene". Foggy kub (talk) 09:34, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * p.192, The supreme ruler of the northern Kyrgyz, it tells about the confederate type of the Kyrgyz of the 18th century. Foggy kub (talk) 18:02, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * On p. 192 there is nothing about the existence of the "North-Kyrgyz Confederation", it refers to the tribal division of the Kirghiz in the 18th century. Nothing about the existence of some state, you just think out information. Kazman322 (talk) 18:39, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Don't lie, on page 192 it says that the Supreme Ruler is the sole ruler of all the northern tribes (not just one kind), and in the source at number 5 (a little higher) everything is clearly indicated. Foggy kub (talk) 18:49, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Where is the North-kyrgyz confederation term? Are you okay? Kazman322 (talk) 19:08, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Read what I wrote. There is no term "North Kyrgyz Confederation", but the very existence of the state is, and do not communicate with me in such a tone. Foggy kub (talk) 19:12, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment: Maybe rename the article to "Tagai Confederation"? Foggy kub (talk) 19:14, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * You still haven't proven the existence of the state. For the special, I repeat: on p.  192 we are talking about the tribal division of the northern Kirghiz living under a single leader, there is nothing about the existence of a separate state. Kazman322 (talk) 19:23, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * (showing for the second time) work of the Soviet Doctor of Historical Sciences Alexander Bernshtam, Alexander Bernshtam writes that in the 18th century the Kyrgyz were divided into northern and southern, the northern had a confederation called "Tagai" (I mentioned this in the article), and the southern confederation "Adygene". there is also a mention of two Kyrgyz states of a confederate type of state administration. Foggy kub (talk) 19:27, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment: I have access to an extensive English-language book on Kyrgyz history, A History of Kyrgyzstan: From Stone Age to the Present; after searching, I was only able to find a single mention of something that could even be tangentially related: "". Curbon7 (talk) 08:10, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * sounds like he was the leader of the tribe, but not the state. Kazman322 (talk) 13:24, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * "the ruler of northern Kyrgyz" where did the respected Curbon7 write "tribe"? Foggy kub (talk) 13:36, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Let me make this clear. The purported founder of the "North Kyrgyz Confederation", Mamatkul Biy, was a real person, as the book that Curbon7 mentioned and this paper in Turkish (on page 20) confirms. However, this person was only the leader of a tribe, not of some united confederation. The Turkish paper says :"Sarbagış boyundan olan Mamatkul Biy", which Google Translate translates to "Mamatkul Biy from Sarbagis tribe", so Mamatkul Biy must have been the leader of a tribe, not of a confederation. The paper does not mention a united Kyrgyz federation. It only mentions the Kyrgyz as a group of tribes. Mucube (talk · contribs) 01:22, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * , (showing for the third time) Here it is clearly seen that he is the common ruler of all the northern tribes and that this is a confederation. Foggy kub (talk) 02:37, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Bernshtam obviously speaks of the modern tribal division into northern and southern Kirghiz, but not about a separate state. Kazman322 (talk) 03:39, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * "dividing ... into the confederation of Adygene and Tagay", everything is written in clear words, you will have to admit this colleague. Foggy kub (talk) 04:04, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Can you read? it says about the modern division of the tribal system of the Kyrgyz. He speaks of a confederation in the context of the tribal system of the Tien Shan Kyrgyz, and not about a separate state. Kazman322 (talk) 04:17, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * , Bernshtam pointed out that Mamatkul was not just the leader of a group of several tribes, but the sole ruler Kyrgyz of all tribes (north). Foggy kub (talk) 04:14, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Where is the mention of the state? It turns out that the tribe of Indians is also a separate country? Kazman322 (talk) 04:17, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I don’t see the point in your words, A. Bernshtam writes that the Kyrgyz were divided into two Confederations Tagai and Adygene (I also need to create an article about Adygene), if you read the entire fragment, you will understand that the Kyrgyz had their own state. Foggy kub (talk) 04:22, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * The Tagay and the Adygine are two of the modern-day tribes. (sources:, pg. 158; , Political organization section) Mucube (talk · contribs) 05:10, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * , "the nomadic society was a confederation of tribes...", here we are talking about the northern Kyrgyz. Foggy kub (talk) 04:19, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, Kyrgyz society was a confederation of tribes. But there was never a Tagay confederation or Adygine confederation. Mucube (talk · contribs) 05:10, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * (showing for the second time). Foggy kub (talk) 05:15, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't speak Russian. But every single English source that I read mentions Tagay and Adygine as tribes. (more sources:, pg. 138; ; , pg. 53) Mucube (talk · contribs) 05:23, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * You still have to read through a translator, because it clearly states that the Kyrgyz were divided into two confederations, the Soviet scientist Alexander Bernshtam writes about this. Regarding your sources, I didn’t find anything in the first one, the second one says that Tagay and Adygene are just tribes, Tagay and Adygyne are the name of a branch of tribes, each branch has a certain number of tribes, this is a union, these names come from these names  confederations. Foggy kub (talk) 05:42, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * in the Russian encyclopedia there is nothing about the existence of the country, it describes the tribal structure. Kazman322 (talk) 08:26, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * What kind of encyclopedia are you talking about, I showed the work of a Soviet scientist, you simply ignore it, you ignore everything I write about. Foggy kub (talk) 08:31, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment I find no mention of this entity in some standard texts: not in Bregel's Historical Atlas of Central Asia nor Abazov's The Historical Dictionary of Krygyzstan nor Soucek's History of Inner Asia.


 * I'm more than usually accepting of non-English sourcing, but on a subject like this it strikes me as somewhat telling that no English sourcing appears available that unambiguosly supports the existence of this entity. Willing to be convinced otherwise, but reliable, high quality sourcing to date is lacking.  Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 09:05, 18 December 2022 (UTC)


 * German-Polish source, where the state of the northern Kyrgyz is mentioned. This is not the Kara-Kyrgyz Khanate of 1842, since the book was written in the 1850s (Before the collapse of the Khanate). Foggy kub (talk) 09:44, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Do not be misled, by the Kyrgyz we mean the Kazakhs, because until 1936 the Kazakhs and the Kyrgyz were called the same. Moreover, the source mentions that the Kirghiz live from the Volga to the Irtysh / Altai, it is obvious that the Kazakhs are meant. Kazman322 (talk) 09:54, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * The source mentions "Kara-Kyrgyz" or "Buruts", it is only said about the Kazakhs that they were called "Kaisak-Kyrgyz". Foggy kub (talk) 10:01, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * This "German-Polish" source is an introduction to an 1842 poem by Gustaw Zieliński dating from around the 1880s (it quotes an 1876 text). This is not a high quality, reliable source that can be used to support the existence of the entity we're discussing. Ideally, we need contemporary sources from academic specicialists; an almost 150 year old introduction to a literary text, full of florid language and hyperbole, does not support the argument. FWIW, a vague wave towards, I'm assuming the following sentence, does not reveal anything relevant to this discussion. "Sie theilen sich in die eigentlichen Kirgisen, die im Gebirge Thian-schan wohnen und Kara (schwarze) Kirgisen oder auch Berg-Kirgisen oder Buruten genannt werden."  Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 19:25, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Second German source 1768. Foggy kub (talk) 10:08, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * A Google books search pointing to "Das Land der Kirgisen" is not evidence of the North Krygyz Confederation. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 19:32, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Third German source 1830. Foggy kub (talk) 10:50, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Again: useless sources that mention the habitat of the Kirghiz, but not modern scientific authoritative works that interpret these tribes as a separate country, every day your sources are getting more and more hopeless. Kazman322 (talk) 10:59, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Dear colleague, these sources mention the state of the Kyrgyz (Buruts), the third source is a German encyclopedia, so these are authoritative sources. Foggy kub (talk) 11:09, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * The fourth German source, which directly points to the state of the Kyrgyz. Foggy kub (talk) 11:05, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * p.477, "Kyrgyz struggle for independence in the 18th century". Foggy kub (talk) 11:25, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete unfortunately, this is original research; there's simply no reliable sourcing showing the existence of a *state* entity called the "North Krygyz Confederation" as presented in the article. It's *possible* to accept from some of the sourcing presented here that there were groupings in this region; but there's no clear consensus on the geographic locations (they overlap: some in northern parts, some southern) and there's simply no evidence that these functioned in the form of a state. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 19:48, 20 December 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.