Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Notre Dame residence halls


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Withdrawn. I can certainly admit when I'm wrong and it looks like one of those times. No point in keeping this open when the result is obvious. Thanks everyone. (non-admin closure) Majora (talk) 00:02, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Notre Dame residence halls

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Seems to be a pretty clear violation of WP:NOTINDISCRIMINATE. Pretty much every source is directly from the Notre Dame website so it doesn't even meet independence requirements. So it fails WP:GNG as well. Seems to be a case of Articles for deletion/Common outcomes Majora (talk) 03:23, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete - Fails WP:GNG for sure; WP:NOT. --  Dane talk  03:25, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Keep - after reading the below !votes and researching policy, the argument about the national register of historic places determining importance seems to line up with longstanding policy for how these articles are handled. I have been swayed by the argument that these meet WP:GNG in light of that. --  Dane  talk  23:51, 17 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Keep. There are many list-articles of university dormitories and/or other buildings split out from the universities' articles (see Category:Lists of university and college buildings in the United States).  Having list-articles heads off cycles of article creation for the lesser individual buildings and AFDs and recreation of the articles etc.  It is very appropriate to allow this to be split out from the main Notre Dame university page.  The article notes that several/many of the halls are listed on the U.S. National Register of Historic Places.  There exists plenty of independent sourcing on those at least;  i am not checking otherwise.  How on earth is this not notable? -- do  ncr  am  16:22, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Further, I see that many of the halls have separate articles, which are not questioned as to their notability. It is 100% fine to have a list-article summarizing about them.  Per wp:CLN, it is fine to have a list-article complementing Category:University of Notre Dame residence halls. -- do  ncr  am  16:26, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Also "pretty much every source is directly from the Notre Dame website" is pretty weak reasoning. What about the sources used that are not from there?  What about all the independent sources not used yet?  I note that in one or more of the separate articles about NRHP-listed ones, that the great NRHP nomination document is not used as a source, but it exists and that's all that matters, AFD-wise.
 * Also, the info at the "common outcomes" link provided needs to be updated: there have been numerous AFDs about lists of dormitories, etc., generally ending "Keep". -- do  ncr  am  16:32, 17 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Keep some of the content (such as the table of "Hall of the Year") may fall under WP:NOTINDISCRIMINATE, but the article as a whole is fine. Many of the dorms are on the National Register of Historic Places or meet WP:GEOFEAT; having a page on the collection as a whole is the right thing to do, even if a few of the entrants don't individually meet notability guidelines. power~enwiki ( π,  ν ) 17:02, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Keep, several of the halls are historic national registered locations and therefor meet WP:GNG, the overall topic does meet WP:CLN as per previous discussions on university lists particularly with respect to frequently noted institutions like the University of Notre Dame. It does need more secondary sources to provide balance. However, as an aside I think the list should be moved to University of Notre Dame residence halls per WP:UNIGUIDE as there are other institutions and locations also called 'Notre Dame'. Randomeditor1000 (talk) 17:08, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree with the move/rename suggestion. I think it would be fine for anyone to implement that, even without a formal wp:RM, after this AFD is closed, assuming Keep decision. -- do  ncr  am  22:35, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Keep There was a discussion in the past where most of these dorms had individual pages but of course they failed notability. Yet, all taken together, they are indeed notable. Notre Dame has a residential college type system, where students must reside in on of the dorms for three years. Every dorm has its own traditions, mascot, teams, events etc... Hence they are not just simply buildings. Additionally, many of them have architectural and historical value. A number of them were built by famous architects, such as Maginnis & Walsh. Many of the halls were inserted in 1973 on the National Register of Historic Places.


 * Eccekevin (talk) 19:28, 17 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Keep -- the argument re National Register certifying their importance is decisive for me. Rjensen (talk) 19:26, 17 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Please excuse my ignorance but the National Register entry on the matter lists it as the "Main and South Quadrangles" not as individual buildings within those areas. Also individual searches for buildings within those quads are not listed at all. So since it isn't the buildings themselves that are registered but the area why would these particular buildings be automatically notable? The area is, sure, but every building within that area is also considered notable by descent? Wouldn't that be a violation of WP:NOTINHERITED? Am I missing something here? Also, 10 buildings are within those areas. The others ones certainly aren't notable either? --Majora (talk) 20:56, 17 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Here's the list https://secure.in.gov/apps/dnr/shaard/r/1c9d1/N/University_of_Notre_Dame_Campus_Main_and_South_Quadrangles_St._Joseph_CO_Nom.pdf of contributing properties, including many dorms. Buy your point is fair, they would not be notable on an article on their own. Indeed, they used to all have their own page, but it was decided that it made more sense to organize them all together. Moreover, here the point is that there is a system of dormitories, and they're not just buildings, but in the residential college system. Much alike the Residential colleges of Rice University, Residential colleges of Yale University, List of Massachusetts Institute of Technology undergraduate dormitories and many others. Each hall/dorm/college is not notable, but together they form a system which is notable. In many cases, as for Notre Dame, alumni of the University often refer to themselves as alumni as a specific college/hall/house. All of the Halls had an individual page (for example:https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fisher_Hall_(University_of_Notre_Dame)&oldid=416513072:, but it was decided to pool them together. Eccekevin (talk) 21:31, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
 * You pdf link doesn't actually prove anything. That same exact form is also listed on the actual Registry search page that I put above. In the very first line on that form it lists the name as the quad. Not the dorms. The quad is historic. The other university residence hall pages are classic OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Another thing that doesn't work at AfD. At least it didn't used to. In any case, your admission that they would not be notable on their own but together they are is confusing. If they aren't notable they aren't notable. Slapping them all together doesn't change that. --Majora (talk) 21:47, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I apologize if my not retrieving NRHP documents confused matters. Maybe there is just one NRHP document which provides some information about several buildings.  It doesn't matter whether they are NRHP-listed separately or not (and by the way many not-separately-NRHP-listed buildings do have articles in wikipedia);  it matters that there is some documentation somewhere about any of them, sufficient to have an article about the collection of them.  There exists 14 or so apparently-wikipedia-notable ones (I know because there exist articles about them), namely:
 * Alumni Hall (University of Notre Dame)
 * Badin Hall (University of Notre Dame)
 * Dunne Hall (University of Notre Dame)
 * Flaherty Hall (University of Notre Dame)
 * Keenan Hall
 * Lewis Hall (Notre Dame)
 * Morrissey Hall (University of Notre Dame)
 * O'Neill Hall (University of Notre Dame)
 * Old College, University of Notre Dame
 * Pasquerilla West Hall (University of Notre Dame)
 * Sorin Hall (University of Notre Dame)
 * St. Edward's Hall (University of Notre Dame)
 * Walsh Hall (University of Notre Dame)
 * Zahm Hall
 * And I gather there are 15 or so more not having articles. Certainly amongst all of these articles and the unused NRHP nomination document(s) there must exist some coverage of the topic of dormitories or residential colleges or whatever they are, at Notre Dame. -- do  ncr  am  22:00, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
 * No, in the official document they are listed as contributing buildings. Each building has an individual description. You can notice this also because there is a list of non-contributing buildings in it, which would make them non-notable. It explicitly states a list o strucutres of lesser or no significance, like the laundry building item33. But many of the dorms are listed tougher with all the other notable contributing buildings, like the Main Administration Building (University of Notre Dame) or the Basilica of the Sacred Heart, Notre Dame. Eccekevin (talk) 22:10, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Right, all that is fine. There do exist many separate Wikipedia articles about buildings that are merely contributing buildings in a NRHP historic district.  Sometimes there are separate articles about non-contributing buildings (but usually for other reasons than their historic significance in the district).  There are many articles in wikipedia about buildings not at all associated with the NRHP, too.  It is fine to have one article which covers all of them, too.  List-articles often have a mix of article-worthy, marginal, and not-worthy-of-a-separate article items. -- do  ncr  am  22:23, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
 * P.S. "Slapping together" several/many items into a list can in fact make the collection notable, even if some or all of the items are not notable. List-item-notability is different than individual notability.  There is guidance about lists somewhere, perhaps wp:SALAT.  If some/many of the items are individually notable, then almost certainly the collection as a whole is notable too, as long as there is some basic coherence about the topic, as here.
 * P.P.S. If someone is really on a tear about this topic area, they can choose to take aim at one or two of the lesser individual residence hall articles. Please notify me if you start an AFD about one of them.  However, outright deletion would not be appropriate for any one of them, because merger/redirection to the common list-article would be superior.  While AFD could be used, it will likely go badly.  Perhaps better to sneak through an effective deletion by a merger proposal at the Talk page of the targeted article(s).  Just hope no one is watching! (hardly likely) -- do  ncr  am  22:16, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment: The main thing is, if you think there's too much coverage about dorms at ND, you've taken aim at the wrong thing.  The list-article includes, by main links, all the other articles.  You can't get rid of the collection as a whole, unless you get rid of each of the component articles first or at the same time.  In any event you need to be arguing for merger back to the next highest level (the list-article or the main ND article).  And surely all of this is too much to merge into the main ND article, while much of it would be valid for the ND article, so why on earth not let it be split out.  Pruning some around the edges, like if some components are merely laundry rooms with no architectural merit, is fine to do however. -- do  ncr  am  22:32, 17 October 2017 (UTC)


 * My post was in response to Major, not you you. Sorry for the confusion. The point is that the NRHP lists the contributing and non-contributing buildings in a specific listing. And many of the dorms are among the former.Eccekevin (talk) 22:34, 17 October 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.