Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/O.L. Rapson


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep.  Phantom Steve / talk &#124; contribs \ 23:35, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

O.L. Rapson

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Manager of a hotel in the 19th century. Other than the fact that he is mentioned in a history of the hotel there is no real claim to fame here, so in my opinion this guy isn't sufficiently notable. Travelbird (talk) 01:50, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

This was a significant historical accomplishment for the entire region. The hotel attracted guests from across the country and O.L. Rapson allowed the hotel to experience a high level of success. Moreover, many of his innovations propelled the hotel to become a tourist mecca. He was a substantial figure in Southern Illinois history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lawman4312 (talk • contribs) 02:43, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 02:57, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Is this Oscar L Rapson findagrave.com entry, no help. No listing in the Texas State Historical Association's Handbook of Texas online. Dru of Id (talk) 03:27, 1 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I unapologetically insert here a recommendation that benighted self-internees of the AfD dungeon brighten their drab lives, if only for a few brief, precious minutes, by visiting the article on Glenn Goodart, who replaced Mr. Rapson as manager. Mr. Zimmerman's children decided to allow Glenn Goodart to take over management of the hotel even though he only had one leg gives you a bit of the flavor.  Notwithstanding the comment (above) that "many of [Rapson's] innovations propelled the hotel to become a tourist mecca," this Goodart fella was unquestionably the man who made it -- if only temporarily -- the local hotspot, as described in the section entitled (I kid you not) Burning down the hotel. EEng (talk) 04:15, 1 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep According to Wikipedia's notability guidelines Mr. O.L. Rapson should qualify for inclusion or at the very least merger into another article. First, the hotel was tourist haven that saw thousands of people from across the United States visit the hotel during his roughly four year tenure as manager.  Second, Mr. O.L. Rapson has been mentioned in multiple histories of the region and was extensively covered in one book about the hotel.  During the time period he managed the hotel he was mentioned in newspapers across the country.  Moreover, there are a large group of people who are interested in this topic and allowing his Wikipedia page to remain may allow other people to contribute more information about Mr. O.L. Rapson in the future.  Therefore, this article has merit and should be allowed to stay. contribs)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lawman4312 (talk • contribs) 21:04, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Nothing about his accomplishments matters unless you can point to the "multiple histories of the region" you mention. So far all I see is the Nolan book on the Wabash hotel, and an apparently routine newspaper account of the hotel opening.  Anything else? EEng (talk) 13:08, 2 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep [striking duplicate recommendation -- please make only one summary recommendation during the discussion] The following are some, but not all of the "multiple histories of the region" I previously mentioned. 1. Faces & Places, A Pictorial History Of Wabash County Illinois by Phil Gower (Hardcover - 1997) 2. WABASH COUNTY ILLINOIS VOLUME 1 History and Families 1824-1993 Wabash County Illinois(Hardcover - 1993) 3. Mt. Carmel Area Sesquicentennial (October 1965) 4. Numerous newspaper articles.  Moreover, in the coming years as more newspapers make their old collections available at places like the Library of Congress more of his accomplishments and biography will be revealed.  Lawman4312 (talk) 14:00, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Can you add some quotations to the article to show that these are more than just routine descriptions typicically found in local pictorial histories? EEng (talk) 17:37, 2 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I added more quotations and information to O.L. Rapson's Wikipedia article. Is it possible to allow the article to remain in Wikipedia now? Lawman4312 (talk) 23:03, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I see you've started a couple of articles, largely using the Nolan book as a source, but I'm worried. None of these people seem to be anything more than typical hometown figures who led decent lives and were remembered fondly by those who knew them.  That's nice, but it's not notable.  In the case of Rapson, all the coverage appears to be routine newspaper coverage of the hotel opening, Kiwanis club luncheons at the golf course, which is not the significant coverage (of Rapson) called for by WP:GNG -- plus the Nolan book, which is self-published and therefore not an acceptable source for Wikipedia.  Is there something I'm not seeing?  And there's something else: from your username, I'm guessing you are associated in some way with the Nolan book.  Is there something you want to tell us? EEng (talk) 11:38, 4 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Frankly, I am not understanding the continued resistance to allowing Mr. Rapson's Wikipedia page. As previously stated Mr. Rapson is mentioned in more than four PUBLISHED works, one SELF-PUBLISHED work, and numerous newspaper articles.  By the way, according to Wikipedia guidelines:

Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, usually in articles about themselves or their activities, without the requirement in the case of self-published sources that they be published experts in the field, so long as: 1. the material is not unduly self-serving and exceptional in nature; 2. it does not involve claims about third parties; 3. it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the source; 4. there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity; 5. the article is not based primarily on such sources. This policy also applies to pages on social networking sites such as Twitter, Tumblr, and Facebook.

Moreover, as already mentioned more information will be able to be contributed by allowing Mr. Rapson to have a Wikipedia page. Additionally, as far as the WP:GNG guidelines are concerned I think this more than qualifies. First, he opened and managed a national resort and a famous regional country club during one of the most tumultuous periods in American history. The hotel attracted famous people from across the country and advertised in a majority of the major cities newspapers during the 1920's. If given time to remain it is likely more information about the other major events in his life will be contributed. That seems to more than surpass the "typical hometown figures" you previously described. Further, if you examine many small town Wikipedia pages you can see links to people that are less notable and not cited but are allowed to remain in Wikipedia.

Next, if you have a moment please review the Please do not bite the newcomers page. My main goal in contributing to Wikipedia to preserve history and write interesting creative articles that are Wikipedia worthy. After reading your last post I am feeling "bitten" or threatened. I checked my other posts that you mentioned and all of them cite independent relevant sources that are published. The "Nolan" book, which you stated I used "largely" as a source is troublesome since I usually list the book as further reading because I think it is a good source and it inspired me to contribute much of this information.

Finally, from the beginning I have tried to compromise and find a consensus. This article could be edited, more content added, or merged. I am trying my best but I have not seen any flexibility. Lawman4312 (talk) 19:54, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete In my experience those who know enough to cite WP:BITE don't need its protection. Rapson managed the hotel, made chicken dinners, maybe brought in gangsters, got fired, opened a store, and got vandalised.  Where's the notability? EEng (talk) 09:46, 7 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Hello EEng,
 * I want to begin by thanking for you your frank criticism and insights. My first posting of this article was not Wikipedia quality and through your helpful comments I have been able to add better quality information.


 * Now, to address the substantive matters. I believe notability is met because Mr. Rapson managed a national hotel, golf course, and was probably involved in organized crime.  Moreover, please consider the fact that in less than seven days I have been able to significantly increase the quality of this article.  If given more time I and others would be able to continue to contribute and make this article better.  I feel that it is not fair to pass ultimate judgment on this article after less than a week.  Would it be possible to give this article more time to show its quality?   If given time I know I can contribute more information that would satisfy the Wikipedia editors.  What's your opinion can we find a consensus? Lawman4312 (talk) 02:27, 8 May 2012 (UTC)


 * The question isn't about the article but about its subject, Rapson, and it's not decided by what he did but by the substantial coverage he's received, if any, in reliable sources. This is a disappointment to you, I know, but your work to date has only gone to demonstrate that such coverage doesn't seem to exist.  Nolan (self-published) is not a reliable source and the newspaper mentions of Rapson appear to be routine and superficial -- that's why Rapson fails WP:GNG. Sorry to say it but the same is probably true of the subjects of the other articles you've created based on Nolan, with the possible exception of the hotel itself, based on the newspaper coverage. Sorry.  EEng (talk) 03:28, 8 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep I am not inclusive about articles on local figures, but I think there is suffiicent significance here, and adequate referencing.  DGG ( talk ) 15:31, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Could you point out the notability-qualifying references, bearing in mind that Nolan is a non-RS (being self-published)? EEng (talk) 22:36, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.