Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Oakdale Christian Academy


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. There is a rough consensus that the school is notable under WP:GNG or even WP:NORG.

Two of the deleting !votes (includes nomination) are based on the promotional nature of the article, but editing is preferred over deletion if this is the reason for deletion and the article is not unambiguously promotional. As of right now, the article does not fall under G11.

There is one delete !vote that is based off of pupil capacity, but this is hardly based on policies or guidelines.

The major policy relevant and discussed here is notability. As the subject is a school, the applicable policy is WP:NSCHOOL. As no sources have indicated that it is for profit, meeting either WP:GNG or WP:NORG is enough.

There are some delete !votes discussing notability that are based on sources in the article, but notability is not based on the sources in the article only, so those !votes are given less weight.

For keep !votes, the sources in the article and discussion have been checked roughly, and there are no significant problems found that affect the weighting significantly. (non-admin closure) ~ Aseleste  (t, c, l) 11:10, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Oakdale Christian Academy

 * – ( View AfD View log )

1. This article was initially created for promotional purposes. The creator of the article was David Bolthouse, the founder of The Envoy Group and Exceed Marketing which promotes, markets, and edits the online appearance of religious and therapeutic programs. This article was just created to increase the school's online appearance. You can see he created many other articles like these to increase online appearance of many other schools (many of which were deleted). 2. Provides no information about the school's programs and academics – just basic information and a bit of history. Shadowrvn728 ❯❯❯  Talk  00:37, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions.  Shadowrvn728  ❯❯❯  Talk  00:37, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions.  Shadowrvn728  ❯❯❯  Talk  00:37, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions.  Shadowrvn728  ❯❯❯  Talk  00:37, 7 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep - regardless of who created it, that was two years ago, and the article has radically changed since then. Neither of the reasons are offered are valid reasons for deletion. StAnselm (talk) 01:01, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
 * delete Fails WP:NCORP. This is a business operating as a school, so NCORP applies. The general taboo against deleting "school" articles does not. -- Deep fried okra ( talk ) 02:41, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
 * What do you mean it's a "business operating as a school"? You realize the school has been around for 100 years, don't you? StAnselm (talk) 03:02, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
 * So it can't be a business? It's a private organization "established in 1921 by Elizabeth E O’Connor." Mere existence is not sufficient. What is needed is to find sufficient coverage in RS to meet the requisite notability requirement. There is not even sufficient coverage to meet WP:GNG -- Deep fried okra  ( talk ) 03:18, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
 * If it's a business (operating for profit) add that to the article, with a reference. It's verifiably a school, for which WP:NCORP says WP:GNG is sufficient. Peter James (talk) 20:44, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
 * updating deletion rationale per Adamant1 and TimothyBlue. The most recent link I saw does not meet sourcing requirements to establish notability. -- Deep fried okra ( talk ) 11:00, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

SunDawn (talk) 08:27, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
 * delete The sources in the article are extremely trivial, I can't find anything that isn't, and I don't think the school is old enough or has the importance as an educational institution to make a "keep because of history" type argument. Maybe if it was built in the early 1800s, had some extremely notable alumni, or was in the national register of historic places, but it wasn't, doesn't, and isn't. So, I'm not seeing what's worth keeping about it. --Adamant1 (talk) 07:51, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
 * That page is marked as historical, there is now consensus to use WP:GNG. Peter James (talk) 20:44, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Actually, there was an RfC recently where it was decided that the subject specific notability guidelines are the standard over WP:GNG. So, the proper notability guidelines in this case would be WP:NORG. --Adamant1 (talk) 01:31, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
 * That is not the case for all SNGs, see Wikipedia talk:Notability. With some exceptions such as corporations or academics SNGs are mainly indicators as to whether GNG will be passed, Atlantic306 (talk) 00:34, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
 * SunDawn (talk) 01:55, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Specifically the section about schools, where the GNG is mentioned. Peter James (talk) 06:39, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
 * and, would you review the two sources I posted below: the Lexington Herald-Leader in 1995 and The Courier-Journal in 2001? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 09:17, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Changed vote again to Keep I have reviewed your sources and your reasoning about the notability of Lexington Herald-Leader and I agreed with your assessment. Two independent sources are provided, thus passed WP:ORG or even WP:GNG.SunDawn (talk) 11:48, 10 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment: There are, in fact, loads of loads of sources. It should be noted that the school was previously called "Oakdale Christian High School", and before that "Oakdale Vocational School". StAnselm (talk) 06:09, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.  The article provides a substantial profile of Oakdale Christian High School. The article notes that Oakdale Christian High School is nestled between two Breathitt County hills. The school does not promote itself so people in Kentucky largely do not know about it. Founded in 1921, "Oakdale has been quietly changing the lives of rural, poor and at-risk boys and girls from the Eastern Kentucky mountains -- and from as far away as Zimbabwe, India or the ghettos of New York City." The school is non-denominational. It has a tiny budget. "Its classrooms and dormitories are furnished with desks and beds that look as if they were picked up at flea markets." The school's academic dean receives a monthly salary of $800, which is more than most employees. Each school year, the school enrolls 40 students. Although the tuition ranges from $3,000 to $3,500, numerous students are unable to pay such an amount. Oakdale allows them not to pay the full amount if they have good grades. The school receives 70% of its revenue through donations. "The school was founded by the Free Methodist denomination as a vocational school for mountain children, said David Tullar, a former Oakdale president. Its role changed as the Free Methodist Church's priorities shifted from domestic to foreign missions. The church turned the school over to an independent board, and improvements in county roads made it possible for local children to attend public schools."  The article provides a substantial profile of Oakdale Christian High School. The article notes that Oakdale Christian High School is "in the rugged Eastern Kentucky mountains". The school has 40 students in seventh grade through twelfth grade. It has 17 employees of whom four are full-time teachers, two are administrators, and two are part-time teachers. The principal is Tim Huff, 34, who is married to Lois. The husband and wife are Oakdale alumni who returned to the school as teachers. The school changed to have a "rigorous curriculum" roughly six years prior, leading to around 66% of its students in the last five years attending college. Some of its students have entered pre-med and engineering programs. The school was run by the Free Methodist Church between the early 1920s and 1960s. It gave up both ownership and control a board of trustees. Oakdale continues to have a relationship with the Free Methodist through hosting a chapel from the denomination. The school charges $8,100 for room and board and tuition which a number of the families can afford. The school relies on funding from 750 donors, several foundations, and roughly 50 churches to pay the rest of the tuition. Its operating costs, which is inclusive of salary costs, is roughly $340,000. The principal said in 2001 that only four students could pay the full tuition that year.  The article provides a passing mention about Oakdale Christian Academy. The article discusses Millersburg Military Institute "limp[ing] on as" Forest Hill Prep Academy which was shut down. The article notes, "Kentucky's only other boarding schools are Oakdale Christian Academy in Jackson and Oneida Baptist Institute in Oneida." There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Oakdale Christian Academy to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 10:28, 8 March 2021 (UTC) 
 * With the substantial profiles in the Lexington Herald-Leader in 1995 and The Courier-Journal in 2001, the school passes Notability (organizations and companies), which says: "All universities, colleges and schools, including high schools, middle schools, primary (elementary) schools, and schools that only provide a support to mainstream education must either satisfy WP:ORG, general notability guideline, or both. For-profit educational organizations and institutions are considered commercial organizations and must satisfy those criteria. (See also WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES, especially for universities.)" Cunard (talk) 10:28, 8 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete Wikipedia has rules against promotionalism for a reason, and if we do not enforce them to remove unaccepable promotional content they will have no meaning.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:05, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep This school was founded in 1921 and certainly is notable in the Jackson, Kentucky area. It certainly meets WP:NSCHOOL and is now in a stub-like state. Even if initially promotional, such content can be removed or rewritten. Enough RS to back it up. Clearly historical and has substantial document as Cunard mentions. Ambrosiawater (talk) 19:37, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete Sources in the article do not meet SIGCOV from IS (eg database listings). There is routine run of the mill local news coverage, I think any community school receives this type of coverage and its nothing that makes this an encyclopedic topic. Looks like a nice school, but I do not think the article and above meets SIGCOV addressing the subject directly and indepth.  // Timothy :: talk  04:52, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment: Oakdale Christian Academy has not received "routine run of the mill local coverage". It was profiled in detailed articles in the Lexington Herald-Leader in 1995 and The Courier-Journal in 2001:<ol><li>The Courier-Journal is the highest circulation newspaper in Kentucky and is based in Louisville, Jefferson County, Kentucky (the largest city in Kentucky).</li><li>The Lexington Herald-Leader's paid circulation is the second largest in Kentucky and is based in Lexington, Fayette County, Kentucky (the second-largest city in Kentucky).</li></ol>Oakdale Christian Academy is based in Jackson, Breathitt County, Kentucky. That the two largest newspapers in Kentucky (which are both based in different counties than Oakdale Christian Academy) published profiles of Oakdale Christian Academy strongly establishes that the school is notable and passes Notability (organizations and companies). Cunard (talk) 09:17, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment Re: "routine run of the mill local coverage." I think the "local coverage" thing comes from the fact that the sources you mention are from local areas and mostly cover local news. Therefore they are not regional or national sources in the way something like USA Today for example would be. While I've never been 100% sure about how the notability guidelines define terms like "regional" or "national" I would assume it means in what type of news source it is. Not where it is geographically local. Otherwise, a "local" newspaper covering something that happens in the next town over would be considered "regional" coverage. Which I don't think is in the spirit of the notability guidelines. I could be wrong about that though. But I don't think anyone would argue a subject is more notable if it is covered in the New Times versus "pick any local newspaper that happens to be a few towns away from where the subject is located." --Adamant1 (talk) 09:25, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
 * That the two largest newspapers in Kentucky profiled Oakdale Christian Academy is enough to meet the "statewide" or "regional" source requirement of Notability (organizations and companies), which says, "Evidence of significant coverage by international or national, or at least regional, media is a strong indication of notability. On the other hand, attention solely from local media, or media of limited interest and circulation, is not an indication of notability; at least one regional, statewide, provincial, national, or international source is necessary." The guideline does not require national sources like USA Today or The New York Times. Coverage in two statewide or regional sources is sufficient. Cunard (talk) 09:53, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The reason I brought up USA Today is because The Courier-Journal is part of the USA Today Network. Not because I think notability requires coverage like it. That aside though, there is no citation for the fact that it is the highest circulation newspaper in Kentucky. At least not in the lead of the article where that statement is made. More importantly though IMO, according to the article it's daily circulation is 131,208 people. When Kentucky has a population of 4.468 million. So, I would hardly call it that large as far as readership goes. Louisville alone has a population of 615,924 people. I'm sure they are getting their news from somewhere. So, even if it can be substantiated that the Courier-Journal is the highest read Kentucky, that's rather meaningless IMO. You could do the same thing with any kind of publication to make something notable. For instance something like "Philadelphia Basket Weaving Monthly" being the largest circulated basket weaving population in the Philadelphia tri-state area doesn't necessarily make something they discuss in their publication if they are only basket weaving publications in Philadelphia and their readership is 10. While the other one has 5 readers. At that point, really so what if they are the most read basket weaving publication in Philadelphia? --Adamant1 (talk) 10:09, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I consider the largest newspapers in a US state to meet the "statewide" or "regional" source requirement of Notability (organizations and companies). That the circulation of The Courier-Journal is 3% of the state's population does not affect the fact that it's a "statewide" or "regional" newspaper. "Philadelphia Basket Weaving Monthly" would not meet the "media of limited interest and circulation" source requirement of Notability (organizations and companies). I sourced the statement about The Courier-Journal being "the highest circulation newspaper in Kentucky" using Salon, which calls it "Kentucky's highest-circulation newspaper" and WBUR-FM, which calls it "Kentucky’s biggest newspaper". Cunard (talk) 10:31, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Your the one that brought up the amount of readership. I could really care less about it. Otherwise, your just arguing for this being notable through inheritance. Plus, NORG doesn't say anything about the size of a paper or it's size compared to other outlets matter anyway. So, It's not something I put weight into myself. --Adamant1 (talk) 21:09, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I think that there's a widespread consensus that the largest daily newspaper (as measured by circulation) in any US state is sufficient for NORG. NORG only requires one (1) non-local source.  Local sources still "count" towards notability according to NORG.  AUD's purpose is to say that if you only get coverage in a local/neighborhood newspaper (the sort that runs "news" about whose grandkids are visiting this week), then that's not sufficient.  You need coverage in a source that doesn't run anything and everything just because they need to fill both sides of the page.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:33, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
 * NORG doesn't say that the existence of 1 non-local source automatically makes something notable though. It just says it's a "strong indication of notability", not that it is. So I'm not really sure what your point is. --Adamant1 (talk) 21:09, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The Guardian is a national newspaper in the UK and its circulation is now less than that; even in 2013 (the year used for The Courier-Journal) it was only 189,000. Circulation is less relevant now most people use the websites instead of the printed newspapers. Peter James (talk) 11:12, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Totally agree. The reason I brought it up though was in response to Cunard saying that this school is notable because it was covered in the popular newspaper in Kentucky. Surely if circulation numbers are less relevant now, then by implication it would also be less relevant now if something is covered in a newspaper that has the most circulation in a particular region. --Adamant1 (talk) 22:31, 10 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep meets WP:GNG (and WP:ORG, although that is not necessary). Peter James (talk) 11:36, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Leaning towards delete -- While I have no concern over the reliability and sourcing of the content, I have grave doubts as to whether any school with a mere 60 pupils is notable. this shows an average of 10 pupils per grade, with slightly more in higher grades than lower ones, perhaps reflecting transfers from other schools for the High School progam.  Peterkingiron (talk) 17:36, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Notability (organizations and companies) does not mention the number of pupils in a school as a factor in determining notability. The guideline requires significant coverage in reliable sources, which this school has. Cunard (talk) 04:36, 15 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep - this article clearly meets GNG and NORG both. A detailed article in the state's official paper of record, and another in the paper in the biggest city in the state, the Courier-Journal, a paper long considered (with the Cleveland Plain Dealer) to be some of the best journalism outside big cities in the country. The fact that such a small school has attracted such note makes it more notable, not less. 174.254.194.134 (talk) 17:48, 13 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep as passes WP:NORG with substantial coverage in multiple regional reliable sources as identified by Cunard so deletion is unnecessary and not validated in my view, Atlantic306 (talk) 00:43, 15 March 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.