Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Octavian Saiu


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus to delete. –&#8239;Joe (talk) 13:10, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Octavian Saiu

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Likely fails WP:NPROF. Creator disagrees (post on my talk page). Let's discuss. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 13:24, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 13:35, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Romania-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 13:35, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

I received your message for proposed deletion of a page I created: Octavian_Saiu. Given the number of references on Google Scholar, as well as JSTOR, news, newspapers and general Google results, I believe Octavian Saiu meets the required criteria for notability. Saiu is recognised as the most important Romanian theatre critic and scholar of his generation. He is also one of the most significant cultural animators of the global theatrical scene, as chair and speaker at key events such as Sibiu International Theatre Festival, Edinburgh International Festival, Festival of Tokyo and many others. He has had a substantial impact outside academia in his academic capacity: through his books and multiple public talks, conferences and dialogues. If required, he may be presented as "public intelectual" and animator rather than "academic" or "theatre critic". Therefore, as requested, I have added new references regarding his rich activity in the Career section and various external links. Could you please advise on how to further improve the page? Also, I hope you agree that the proposed deletion template can now be removed.Allthedots (talk) 13:41, 1 September 2019 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, RL0919 (talk) 13:29, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete All the coverage I am seeing is WP:MILL. I don't see a claim in the article that indicates passing WP:NPROF. Rockphed (talk) 12:19, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

I am afraid that we do not have the same understanding of notability in the theatre field. So, let me sum up: - the page Octavian Saiu presents the activity of a professional theatre critic and scholar, an activity that is very well referenced from external sources (not only Wikipedia as this is not a mandatory criteria). - Saiu is recognised as one of the most important Romanian theatre critics and scholars - fact that is easily proven by the references I just mentioned - and as I said in the first place: If required, he may be presented as "public intellectual" and animator rather than "academic" or "theatre critic" - as I also wrote before, he is one of the most significant cultural animators of the global theatrical scene, as chair and speaker at key events such as Sibiu International Theatre Festival, Edinburgh International Festival, Festival of Tokyo, Wuzhen Theatre Festival - these are not just key events, but some of the most important theatre festivals in the world. - as written on the page he has hosted cultural conversations with Tim Robbins, Jin Xing, Neil LaBute, Ohad Naharin, Jaroslaw Fret, Mao Weitao, Stan Lai, Stanley Wells and many others - therefore, we cannot say that he was involved in just one event - the Festival in Katowice was an example which is actually not mentioned on the page, but it is an important festival where all the major Polish theatre directors participate. - speaking of the published books, that are mostly in Romanian - unfortunately, there are very few digital archives in Romania, so the search for citations online does not represent a valid tool. Not to mention the fact that MA and PhD theses, which include references to his works, are not digitally archived either - The International Association of Theatre Critics can be easily found here: https://aict-iatc.org/en/ - and it is a most important international organization with sections all over the world. IATC was UNESCO affiliated, and the number one partner of ITI - UNESCO - yes, there is no Wikipedia page, but their activity is essential in every large-scale theatre event. - the UNITER Prize is the most important theatre award in Romania - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNITER. - in terms of WP:TOOSOON, I don't think age is a criteria, just because someone is young that doesn't mean that he has not made an impact. His experience goes back for more than 15 years and that, I believe, is more important.
 * Keep. As stated above, the entire article presents Octavian Saiu's broad activity as the most important Romanian theatre critic and scholar of his generation. His published works are an essential source of information for students and professionals alike, as they offer a clear and comprehensive perspective of the global theatrical scene. His critical thinking has gained the utmost respect at an international level, a fact reflected in his constant presence at the most prestigious theatre festivals in the world (i.e. Edinburgh International Festival, Sibiu International Theatre Festival, Wuzhen International Theatre Festival) and in the conferences he has conducted (with renowned artists from all around the world). Moreover, in 2013, he received the Award of the Union of Theatre Artists (UNITER) - the highest honor in Romania for theatre critics. Based on the facts that are clearly referenced in the article, he fulfils the criteria: ”has had a substantial impact outside academia in their academic capacity” and ”has received a highly prestigious academic award or honor at a national or international level” from WP:NPROF. Allthedots (talk) 16:48, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment. Speaking at conferences is business as usual for most academics, even many grad students speak at several during their studies. The awards he received don't have their own Wikipedia articles and there there is no indication they are actually not niche. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:44, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment "Speaking at conferences" is one thing, speaking at conferences as keynote and plenary speaker is another. Also, to give talks in front of a paying audience - as he did recently in Tokyo - is definitely totally different than "business as usual": http://www.theaterx.jp/19/190913-190915p.php. The UNITER Award is the most important theatre award in Romania, and its description on Wikipedia or the lack thereof is not an essential argument. That applies to many national and even international theatre awards. As an example, let me refer to Interpretacie Festival in Katowice. It's a major theatre event in Poland - and incidentally Saiu was a jury member there, in 2014, together with Teresa Budzisz–Krzyzanowska and Grzegorz Jarzyna - but it doesn't exist on Wikipedia. So, should we discount the awards received there by important Polish theatre artists? Allthedots (talk) 18:54, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
 * While it is not a definite test, whether something (a festival or an award) exists on Wikipedia or not is a decent test of whether something is important. If an award, for example, does not exist on Wikipedia, it is a good sign (of course, not fullproof) it is a very niche one, ditto for festival. Think about it: Wikipedia is almost 20 years old, if during that time nobody bothered to write up an entry on such items, the odds are good they are really very minor. Anyway, I can speak Polish and actually K-ce is my hometown. I looked at pl:Kategoria:Festiwale teatralne w Polsce, which lists few dozens of theater festivals in Poland, but it does not have an entry for the one you mention. Now, in all honestly, it probably is no less notable that some other entries there, and I see some sources one could use to stub it, but this is hardly a word-class event. It is a minor, local event, and being a keynote speaker there is not something that contributes to notability. In fact, being a keynote speaker is IMHO not contributing to notability ever, not unless it generates significant coverage, and more than once to avoid WP:ONEEVENT type of issues. Śo, I am sorry, but no, I am still not convinced that the subject is doing anything above average. Again, as an academic, he needs to pass WP:NPROF, and that requires more than small number of citations and some very niche keynotes and such. Let's be realistic here: the subject is ~40 years old, that's way WP:TOOSOON in academia for someone to be generally considered important. There are exceptions, academia stars with major awards and news coverage, but I am afraid the subject is not one yet. Perhaps in 20 years? -Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:01, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Being a theatre professional myself, I sincerely don't understand why all of this is not considered notable. Having witnessed many of Saiu's events (including book launches, conferences, dialogues), I must say that he is a living talent, highly appreciated by many at an international level, who has developed, very early, a unique career, that cannot be easily framed or reviewed through criteria. However, the number of reliable references is quite large. With all due respect, this debate seems to be affected by many cultural prejudices, of different kinds. Maybe, it would have been useful to offer me some advice on how to further improve the page, rather than dismantling all the arguments. Thank you, Allthedots (talk) 10:43, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
 * In the end, this is your view. You say he is most important, most significant... but where are reliable sources saying so? If he is so important, other scholars should have written a monograph about him,or at least an article. We are not a place to assert one's notability, we just repeat what other sources say, and so far, they say very little about the subject. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  03:39, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Nosebagbear (talk) 14:11, 15 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep Disagree with claim that sources are WP:MILL. I can't check sources in Romanian language. But his book production, his positions in the International Association of Theatre Critics (IATC) and what I interpret as significant involvement in international events abroad make him a quite likely pass for WP:GNG in Romania.  Keep rationale partly leans on WP:BIAS. Article could be somewhat pruned with more arms-length coverage. Have no interest in the article myself. MrCleanOut (talk) 20:34, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
 * He does seem to be writing a lot of books. But their impact is very small, GScholar has best cited by 17, most by <5: . As for International Association of Theatre Critics, I'd be more inclined to consider this if over the 20 years of Wikipedia history someone bothered to at least stub the entry for this organization. Lack of entry suggests (through is not a sure proof of) lack of significance and notability of such an organization. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:07, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep. Saiu passes the WP:GNG in my opinion based on the cited references. On a side note, the IATC (a branch on UNESCO) is the main professional organization of theater critics in the world, and is the parent organization of pretty much all major theater critics organizations internationally, including the American Theatre Critics Association.4meter4 (talk) 05:12, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I am not sure that being a "President of the Romanian Section – Theatre Studies of IATC" is sufficient here, for example being a temporary section head for the International Sociological Association wouldn't, IMHO, be sufficient to make a sociologist notable (that's to take an example from my field). I'll ping User:Randykitty and User:DGG who often have valuable input in the case of academic topics and their notability. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 10:16, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
 * The critics associations for each country are themselves notable because they basically act like unions in European countries because the theaters are owned and operated by the government. The critics association often gets involved in protecting the legal interests of critics when in comes intellectual property right, contract negotiations, protecting speech, legal aid, and works as a mediator when issues of nationally internal significance come up. So while the international organization is important, the individual national organizations are just as important because every country's laws are different and critics face different problems in different countries.4meter4 (talk) 11:30, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Even if I take your word that this is true for all countries (in my experience, mileage in this, i.e. activities of national chapters of such organizations, vary a lot), notability is not inherited. And he is not a president of the Romanian chapter but 'Adjunct Secretary General', which frankly sounds too verbose to suggest it is a serious position. And even if he was the president, it's not like such a position is sufficient to guarantee notability. In the end, it all boils down to simple questions like 'did he receive any independent press coverage in this role'? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 09:38, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Weak keep article suffers somewhat from WP:PEACOCK, but I suspect that might be due to recent changes following the deletion tagging. Applying WP:PROF exclusively somewhat unfair given subject's activities, aspects of WP:ENT are relevant (eg unique contribution), what pushes it over the line for me is the UNITER award - which qualifies as professional recognition by peers.--Goldsztajn (talk) 13:59, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
 * The problem is that neither Award of the Union of Theatre Artists nor the Union of Theatre Artists appear significant. Red flag of not getting even a stub for close to 20 years of Wikipedia history even for the parent organization is an issue. But let's assume the organization is important (frankly, I'd think it likely is notable) - can you find a single source that declares "Award of the Union of Theatre Artists" to be significant? Google search for "Award of the Union of Theatre Artists" gives ~600 hits, and zero in newspapers or books... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 09:46, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete, does not meet WP:PROF. His works have minimal citation counts, nor do I see reviews of his books. All academics publish, that is not what makes them notable. What makes them notable is if those publications are noted (which can be measured by reviews or citations). Being president of a local branch of an international organization is not really what PROF means with "highest elected position". Nor am I convinced that the awards listed are notable and that they are important enough to confer notability according to PROF. The article also suffers from some promotionalism and if it is kept then the list of publications should be shortened severely, WP is not ResearchGate or LinkedIn. --Randykitty (talk) 14:16, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete He can qualify as either an academic or as a dance professional-.In general, WP:PROF says we judge academics who work in the performing or creative arts according to the standards in their crreative filed, as they are not expected to produce peer-reviewed publications. But an academic in those fields who does have a research doctorate, and does produce academic work, will be judged as an academic. (There is also the intermediatestatus of working specifically as a theatre critic or cultural participant, which basically goes into the GNG category for want of anything specific., Looking at the publications, he's an academic, writing not about current productions, but upon modern classic works  and related theoretical topics.  I have no basis for judging the importance of Bulgarian books. and periodicals, certainly not in this field. But WorldCat shows that the only book of his translated into English is in only 4 libraries. Google Scholar is hard to use in the humanities, as the numbers of citation to analyze is typically much lower. But the only item cited more than 7 times is a book  The International Reception of Samuel Beckett, wherehe is only one of a numberof contributors, and the whole book, not his chapter, is what is being cited.
 * The "career" section of our article is promotional padding andname dropping, and would be judged as that for any person in any field in any country" Throughout the years, he has hosted cultural conversations with Tim Robbins[20], Jin Xing[21], Neil LaBute[22], Ohad Naharin[23], Jaroslaw Fret[24], Mao Weitao[25], Stan Lai[26], Stanley Wells[27] and many others." is an example. When it's borderline notability, promotionalism settles the issue.
 * This is one of the cases wheee someone can be important in the academic world within a particular country without being noticed elsewhere. Our standard view of this is that notability under WP:PROF is international, with a single world-wide standard. I'd make exceptions for those who are studying something intrinsic to a country or region where the only place or publication will be that country, but most of his work is on international topics--even Ionesco  wrote in French, not Romanian. .  DGG ( talk ) 21:18, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Regarding his role in the International Association of Theatre Critics, he is the Adjunct Secretary General of the international organization and the President of the Romanian Section – Theatre Studies of IATC - so, he holds both an international and national position. As stated above, he meets the WP:GNG criteria - maybe another category should be chosen, like ”cultural animator”, for example, instead of Academic, taking into consideration the specificity of his profile.Allthedots (talk) 12:28, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I'll just add that it is possible for a scholar to be notable nationally, for example if his work would become subject of study by another Romanian scholars, even if not a peep of this would appear in English. For example, consider Leszek Gondek, who IMHO is notable because some other Polish scholars published a chapter about him in some book (even if it is super niche work). This, nonetheless, shows that some other scholars in the field consider work of another significant. Nothing like this is, however, present here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 09:46, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment  I have specified very clearly that we are not merely talking about a typical academic, but a theatre critic and intellectual who has been a driving force in many prominent international cultural events. If we think about it, Neil LaBute or Tim Robbins would not accept to have public dialogues with just anybody. Also, not all of his activities are listed online. Why? Because theatre as a field is about "here and now", and interest for online archiving is often minimal. Furthermore, not all that is valuable is quantifiable in terms of online quotations and links. You also know that the opposite perspective is equally valid: so many things that are temporarily covered by dozens of websites may simply not be worthy of substantial attention.
 * Please refer to WP:ITSIMPORTANT and Verifiability not truth. Wikipedia is not the place to promote someone, or make the case they are important. If as you say, theater studies don't publish verifiable documents, well, they are not going to be represented in Wikipedia until they decide to change their attitude. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  13:03, 24 September 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.