Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Old (Roman) Catholic Church of America


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Doczilla @SUPERHEROLOGIST 20:22, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Old (Roman) Catholic Church of America

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

I have tried to make some research on this alleged denomination and found nothing.

The page is strangely a merge of Archdiocese of the Old Catholic Church of America; this is strange, because the article previously stated Old Catholic Church of America was the former name of the group and that before that the name was Archdiocese of the Old Catholic Church of America. I am confused: is it possible there was a quid pro quo for so many years that two pages about the same group under different names coexisted on WP for 9 years until the 2017 merge? No secondary RS is here to help.

Research on the supposed bishops given by the article creator has only yielded WP:PASSING mentions. In Independent Bishops: An International Directory (1990, p. 90), the entry title of Paul Francis Cope, the alleged founder of the group, states he was a part of the Old Catholic Orthodox Church; the entry content reads: "Paul Francis Cope, an American from Kansas City, was consecrated on November 7, 1925, by James Bartholomew Banks of the Old Catholic Orthodox Church." Francis Xavier Resch's WP article does not mention this group. Walter Xavier Brown's orbituary does not mention this group. James E. Bostwick's Legacy.com makes one WP:PASSING mention of "the Old (Roman) Catholic Church of America". There are passing mentions in a Milwaukee Journal Sentinel article about one of the next primates, Sherman Randall Pius Mosley ("Old Roman Catholic Church of America"). Henry Pleau is described in Independent Bishops (idem., p. 323) as being part only of the Orthodox Catholic Church in America; however, his entry also states: "He [Pleau] was consecrated in Ottawa, Ontario, on September 24, 1974, by Walter Xavier Brown, at that time representing the Archdiocese of the Old Catholic Church of America [...]. The name of Brown's church has recently been changed to Orthodox Catholic Church in America. In 1986, this church entered into an agreement with the Orthodox Catholic Church of America, headed by Alfred Lankenau, to form a confederation of independent bishops, called the Holy Synod of America." I found no secondary RSs about the other primates. The group has an opencorporates page where it is marked as delinquent (i.e. the state has the right to dissolve it).

The article 'Archdiocese of the Old Catholic Church of America', before the merge, used to rely on the 2nd edition of the Melton's encyclopedia of American religions for its claims. Also before the merge, the Old (Roman) Catholic Church of America article relied on two newspaper sources which were simple URLs with no way to identify the data, and the archive of those URLs did not capture the scans needed. I have checked the two sources on NewsBank and removed them (see my summaries here and there) after a lenghty search in which I found no mention of any of the names of this alleged group (I read most pages and searched for all the keywords in the OCR search I could think about, including "catholic").

The archive of the website given since the merge states the name of the organisation is Old Catholic Church of America.

I was unable to review the second edition of the Melton's encyclopedia of American religions given as a source, with neither page number nor any other identifying data; I have doubt it contains any of the information on this alleged group anyway. I doubt this, because there is nothing on the 2009 (8th) edition of the Melton's encyclopedia of American religions on any of the names given, not a single mention; this edition has a record of the defunct groups at the end, which includes, e.g., the Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe. Moreover, WP:GNG (WP:NCHURCH) is not proven simply by one RS possibly mentioning or discussing a subject.

I have not found any current website of this alleged group.

Therefore, since the group clearly does not meet GNG and NCHURCH, I propose the article be deleted. Veverve (talk) 19:39, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Christianity and United States of America. Veverve (talk) 19:39, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment Somewhat familiar with this, the churches that rejected Vatican II reforms call themselves the Old Catholic Church. I'm not sure if there's any sort of formal reunion of parishes under this "denomination". Sourcing is hard to find. Oaktree b (talk) 19:52, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Apparently the group claims (claimed?) to be Old Catholic. There are numerous Old Catholic groups and organisations, from the major ones (Union of Utrecht, Union of Scranton), to the non-notable micro-groups (like this one, possibly). Veverve (talk) 19:57, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Strong Delete This is not a standard Old Catholic denomination, but clearly a very minuscule recent Independent Catholic group with almost no reliable sourcing. I did find a website that appears to be somewhat current, but every reference to their clergy only reveals primary-source information. Interestingly, my cursory search yielded a Pinterest that I can link on request that suggests that this group is somehow active insofar as members have attended conferences of similarly disposed independent Catholic congregations and clergy (and that the denomination in question also apparently approves of gay marriage). Due to some local knowledge and...well, let's not worry about it, I wonder if it is somehow related to these interesting chaps (which is of course not an argument for notability). ~ Pbritti (talk) 20:08, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The Catholic Life Church WP article only relies on the 2nd edition of The Encyclopedia of American Religions; however, as expected it has an entry in the 2009 Melton's encyclopedia of American religions (p. 1150). I do think groups do not get removed easily from the Encyclopedia of American Religions. Veverve (talk) 20:27, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete as per well-reasoned and detailed nom. If more sources turn up I'd reconsider, but this looks pretty cut and dried to me. Tony Fox (arf!) 20:31, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom & others. Johnbod (talk) 21:18, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete. Jdcompguy (talk) 03:06, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Ltwin (talk) 13:39, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete seems obvious per nom. Gnomatique (talk) 08:38, 2 June 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.