Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Oliver Bearman


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. There is clearly no consensus as to which are notable and which are not; they should be relisted individually. Black Kite (talk) 23:36, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Oliver Bearman

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WP:BLPs of non-notable child racing drivers competing in very minor series who have not received significant coverage from independent, reliable sources. It is not our job to make these kids WP:FAMOUS. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 03:22, 18 October 2021 (UTC) I am also nominating the following related pages because all of the same issues apply:
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 03:22, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Motorsport-related deletion discussions. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 03:22, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 03:22, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Motorsport-related deletion discussions. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 03:22, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 03:22, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Motorsport-related deletion discussions. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 03:22, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Motorsport-related deletion discussions. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 03:22, 18 October 2021 (UTC)


 * I don't think it is a good idea to have so many articles nominated as in my opinion they are not the same. Does WP:MINORS say we shouldn't apply WP:GNG if they are a minor the same as if they are adults? In any case, I agree with the nom to delete Oliver Bearman, Joshua Dufek and Tom Lebbon per the nom. However for now I am neutral on Christian Mansell, Enzo Scionti and Zak O'Sullivan as I feel they may meet the spirit of WP:NMOTORSPORT (since Mansell and Scionti have competed in Euroformula Open, and O'Sullivan won the 2021 GB3 Championship, formerly known as the BRDC F3 championship). I should have a closer look into those three another time. A7V2 (talk) 08:55, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I will remain with my assessment (delete) of Bearman, Dufek and Lebbon: the sources found for Bearman in my opinion do not establish notability. Routine coverage in publications which specifically cover minor motorsports (eg Formula Scout) and "media releases" can't be used to establish notability. I was unable to find any significant coverage of Enzo Scionti so delete for him as well. I will now !vote Weak Keep for Zak O'Sullivan and Christian Mansell. In O'Sullivan's case, I see a lot of coverage now relating mostly to his recent championship win (as discussed below) but perhaps borderline on if this is not simply routine. I was also able to find many sources discussing Mansell, eg several articles in speedcafe (an RS) but this was mostly media releases, or just routine coverage (eg ). But for him I was able to find some significant coverage here in The Checkered Flag which I think goes into more than just routine coverage but it may not be enough, hence the "weak" qualifier. A7V2 (talk) 23:27, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I think coverage of a driver winning an entry-level single-seater championship probably falls under WP:ONEEVENT. What coverage there is of them is probably better used as sourcing for the article(s) on that championship rather than for creating a WP:BLP. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 03:29, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Giving it more thought you are right here. That said I am still hesitant. If you had nominated O'Sullivan a couple of months ago then it would have been a clear delete but now I'm not so sure. I also think the coverage for Mansell is lacking, so I am switching those two !votes to Weak Delete for Zak O'Sullivan and Christian Mansell. A7V2 (talk) 23:49, 22 October 2021 (UTC)


 * In my opinion the deletion of these articles would be unjustified. Firstly, a driver competing in a series at the Formula Three level has already stepped over Formula 4 to further their career development, and has a good chance of becoming a professional driver in the future. This applies to Oliver Bearman, Tom Lebbon, Christian Mansell and Zak O'Sullivan, as they have all raced in the 2021 GB3 Championship], and Enzo Scionti, who has been competing in the 2021 Euroformula Open Championship. The reason for me not wanting a deletion of Joshua Dufek is because he once was a member of a Formula One team's academy, namely the Sauber Junior Team, and was therefore on the progression ladder up to F1. AS19Portsmouth (talk) 16:45, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment These should have been nominated all separately in my opinion, but may as well start discussing it. Oliver Bearman has been moved to draftspace by the article's creator, but I think it should return to mainspace (I vote keep on it) as there is some quite decent coverage of him in and, plus he seems the likeliest candidate to win the right to enter Ferrari Driver Academy. I also found a decent source for Zak O'Sullivan in  (and is covered in a tabloid Gloucestershire Live, which isn't reliable), maybe someone else finds more so I'm undecided. For the others, aside from WP:ROUTINE coverage...nothing. For example, while searching for Joshua Dufek most of the results led me to Joshua Dürksen instead! Hence delete Dufek, Lebbon, Mansell and Scionti. Euroformula and F4/F3 are not something I'd call up for meeting the WP:NMOTORSPORT criteria 1.  Jovanmilic97 (talk) 19:38, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Pinging and  for comments on the sources I've found. Jovanmilic97 (talk) 19:47, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I've not heard of f1feederseries.com but it seems questionably reliable (it seems almost anyone can write for them) and regardless I'd say as is the case with Formula Scout (which you also mentioned, and I feel is at least reliable) can't really be used to establish notability, so I'm still thinking delete for Bearman. I didn't mean to say Mansell and Scionti are definitely notable based on participation in Euroformula Open, just that they are in with a chance but I have to look properly. If there's nothing to be found I will say delete as well. For O'Sullivan I would lean keep, but maybe for him in particular having just won the GB3 championship a couple of days ago it might be a good idea to leave him a few months and see what happens. There's a flood of articles about him at the moment but all saying more or less the same thing. A7V2 (talk) 23:26, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't think membership of a driver academy infers notability. It might infer that somebody is more likely to become notable in the future, but it doesn't make somebody a public figure in its own right. My concerns with all of these drivers is more or less the same; they aren't public figures because they aren't independently notable of the events they compete in. In most cases I don't think there's any information about them which can be conveyed in their own articles which it wouldn't be better to convey in articles about the series they compete in. I think I follow motorsport news quite closely, and most of these series receive very little non-WP:ROUTINE coverage most of the time. It's only once you reach the level of the FIA Formula Three Championship that I would say coverage becomes significant enough to warrant creating separate articles about the individual races and biographies of  the competitors. My apologies if I formatted these nominations incorrectly, I figured it would be more convenient to lump them together but I can now see that it may have been better to split them up. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 03:05, 19 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep Bearman, Mansell, O'Sullivan and Scionti. Neutral on Dufek. Delete Lebbon —— I feel like Mansell and Scionti meet WP:NMOTORSPORT as they are currently racing in Euroformula Open and the former just came 3rd in the 2021 GB3 Championship (aka British F3) last weekend, so I'd say those two are fairly straightforward keeps. Bearman is the newly-crowned 2021 Italian F4 champion, is leading ADAC (German) F4 and has raced part-time in GB3 with significant success – he is also a candidate for the prestigious Aston Martin Autosport BRDC Award (AMABA) and a place in the Ferrari Driver Academy, and is expected to make the logical step-up to FRECA or FIA Formula 3 next year, though this could make him a case of WP:TOOSOON. Personally, I think he's eligible for an article despite still racing in Formula 4. As for O'Sullivan, he's just won the GB3 Championship by a comfortable margin and, like Bearman, is a contender for the AMABA – therefore I vote keep. I'm unsure about Dufek – he looks like a safe bet for a seat in a Formula Three series next season and is a former member of the Sauber Junior Team (although that was in 2019 when he was still in karting), yet he's in his second year of Formula 4 with good results but isn't setting the world alight. He might be an example of WP:TOOSOON but I see no problem with keeping it. Lebbon on the other hand won the 2020 Ginetta Junior Championship as a rookie, which is a pretty decent achievement, but has thus far been a mid-table GB3 driver. A page might be warranted in the future but not yet, I think. MSport1005 (talk) 13:05, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
 * The problem with keeping them is that they are biographies of living people who appear not to have received significant coverage in reliable sources. If they DO meet NMOTORSPORT, then that should mean that reliable sources can be found. We aren't dealing with history here, if the sources exist they shouldn't be too difficult to find. A7V2 (talk) 23:34, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I focused on notability because I find that to be the main issue here, not reliability. While most sources come from news outlets specializing in motorsport (and in some cases, lower formulae), they're reliable and written by people who generally are at the paddock. This is the case with Autosport, Motorsport.com, Formula Scout, AutoMobilSport.com and Italiaracing.net. The only ones I find questionable are TheCheckeredFlag and local, general-interest media from wherever the driver is from. MSport1005 (talk) 10:31, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what you mean by "I focused on notability... not reliability"? Except in a few limited cases (Notability (sports) not being one of them), all articles, especially BLPs need to meet WP:GNG. The achievements of a person can give an indication of notability but it is the sources which determine it. In Scionti's case, even if we assume Formula Scout can be used to establish notability (I don't believe it can, and others have expressed this belief but perhaps it is something which requires a separate discussion), no-one has yet provided any which give him substantial coverage. Even his article is sourced to just a tweet and two Formula Scout articles which are just trivial mentions. If he is notable, then good reliable sources providing substantial coverage must exist, but I couldn't find any hence my delete !vote above. What you say about sources is odd, I certainly don't see an issue with general-interest media (ie newspapers and the like) but in any case I have reconsidered my keep !votes above, especially using The Checkered Flag since it does appear to have a low bar for contributors. A7V2 (talk) 23:49, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
 * My point was that most sources are reliable, so I commented on what I believe to be the question here: whether the subject meets general notability and has received significant coverage. The sources come generally from very specific sites specializing in motorsport and on few occasions local media (whose reliability I don't know). Now, is that significant coverage? In my opinion, in some cases it is and in others no. Scionti is one I might have to review, in fairness—he essentially skipped F4 and is well off the pace in Euroformula (his coverage is obviously proportional to his success). But that should be a different discussion anyway, it was a mistake to nominate all these at once. MSport1005 (talk) 11:12, 23 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Procedural close and oppose relisting. There are too many articles lumped together that are disimilar in context to make a multi-nomination appropriate. The nominator should nominate all of these individually so that articles can be properly discussed on their individual merits in relation to GNG and NSPORT. Discussion has been minimal here because of the inappropriate lumping of articles into multi-article AFD. Community participation is likely to remain low in this format, and Consensus is not likely to be reached or a fair evaluation of each article occur using this format. 4meter4 (talk) 16:10, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Procedural close I agree, these should be listed separately as all six of them have very different levels of coverage, and have competed in different competitions. This bundled nomination is confusing and therefore will stop editors from participating, and it seems clear that some of these people are probably notable, whilst others are not. So they need to all be judged on their own merits. Joseph2302 (talk) 16:27, 29 October 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.