Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Oliver Fish and Kyle Lewis


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. Of course, this does not forestall merge discussions, or any other normal editing decisons. Xymmax So let it be written   So let it be done  00:31, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Oliver Fish and Kyle Lewis

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This article seems premature as this new fictional couple has had limited screen time, nothing links to this article and any immediate need is unlikely. Press coverage about the storyline has primarily involved actor Scott Evans, and is covered in the character article Oliver Fish. I boldly redirected but was reverted. &mdash; TAnthonyTalk 00:32, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Note the construction template was added, but was inactive, and was later readded. I remain neutral though. The Weak Willed 00:38, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep. I created the Luke and Noah article when they were just starting out as well, before they had even kissed. Look at the article now. I don't see why this one shouldn't be given a similar chance to grow. --Silvestris (talk) 01:35, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Your argument relies on the existence of material with which to build the article, and my argument is that there isn't much at this point. Articles should be created when a sufficient amount of notable information creates a need, not in anticipation of possible content. In general I also feel that there are few couples which require both individual articles and a joint one, and in particular "couple" articles are not conducive to "natural" links in other articles. Even the notable Luke Snyder and Noah Mayer has relatively few actual articles which link to it (I count six here, one of which is the disambig page Nuke and two of which are "See also" links in the individual character articles). The storyline is just beginning, it seems too soon for something like this. What's the rush?&mdash; TAnthonyTalk 02:32, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment. Silvestris, when you created the Luke and Noah article, they were already a notable couple, though not yet an official pairing. Their article just needed to be expanded with notability, which I did. And, yes, they deserved/deserve their own article, seeing that Luke Snyder is notable enough to have his own article significantly expanded with notability about himself (if one were to simply look for the reliable sources, which there are plenty of). Including all the notable information about his romantic pairing with Noah Mayer into his (Luke's) article would have simply made his article too much about "Nuke" instead of about Luke. This is why fictional couple articles are sometimes needed in addition to those characters' individual character articles. But there must clearly be notability. I feel that you should hold off on creating any more fictional couple articles if you do not plan to expand them yourself. A single reliable source about the couple is not going to be adequate enough when another article, in this case, the Oliver Fish article, goes into all or just about all the needed and sourced detail about the couple. Flyer22 (talk) 09:26, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment. Wouldn't it make more sense if that information was in the Kyle and Fish article instead? Having all the info about the couple be in Fish's article is like having all the information about Luke and Noah be only in Luke's article. Silvestris (talk) 15:24, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment. Not the same at all, considering that this current non-couple has not created enough notable history as a couple yet. The information in Fish's article is due to creation of the character and impact this same-sex storyline has caused more due to his presence than Kyle's. Flyer22 (talk) 19:56, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Silvestris, in the case of Luke and Noah and this article, you have the habit of creating a stub just for the sake of it, and waiting for others to build on it ... the Nuke articles was just a big plot summary dump until Flyer came along after a couple of months and expanded it. But as she says, by that time there was a lot of non-plot material available. There has been some coverage in advance of the Kish storyline, but nothing since it began. For all we know, it'll last for two weeks and there will be no discussion of its impact in the press. At a later date, it may be appropriate to have a joint article (perhaps even redirecting the individual articles), but not now.&mdash; TAnthonyTalk 21:10, 21 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete: WP:GNG is quite explicit: there needs to be multiple reliable sources discussing the subject in detail in order to sustain an article. These don't exist.  There's certainly no prejudice in recreating an article about a subject when and if it becomes notable, but Wikipedia is for subjects that have become notable, not about subjects fans hope become notable.    RGTraynor  03:15, 21 August 2009 (UTC) Changing to Keep: Benjiboi's list works for me; a quick glance at the sources demonstrates that they discuss the couple.    RGTraynor  16:26, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep/Merge. I have a hunch being a gay couple on this long-running show would seem to meet notability guidelines. I also found:
 * Fish Out of Water: One Life to Live’s Scott Evans talks about playing a gay cop’s coming-out story and being the openly gay brother of A-List hunk Chris Evans. Michael Fairman, Advocate, June 22, 2009.]
 * Gay Kishmet: Scott Evans and Brett Claywell chat about their highly anticipated kiss on One Life to Live. Nelson Branco, Out.
 * Soapside: Advocate's Guide to Daytime June 18, 2009, Advocate, Michael Fairman.
 * The New Kids In Town Lauren Flynn, Soap Opera Digest.
 * Brett Claywell dishes on “Kish” Anthony D. Langford, AfterElton, August 18, 2009.
 * 'One Life' Casts Mama and Papa 'Fish' July 23, 2009; By Scotty Gore.
 * Gay Entertainment Report: Another Daytime Gay Storyline On Top Magazine, June 10, 2009.
 * Black bottoms out Billy Masters, Bay Windows, June 15, 2009]
 * A missive from an undisclosed Eastern European country Billy Masters, Bay Windows, July 14, 2009.
 * Gay Entertainment Report: Broadway Hunk Lands In Llandview On Top Magazine, June 26, 2009. At minimum we would merge this to one character or another or a list of LGBT characters on soap operas or similar; same-sex couplings on daytime TV Soaps is certainly a notable subject so we just need to suss out how to report it encyclopedicly.  -- Banj e  b oi   07:44, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * This is my point, many of these sources are used in the Oliver Fish article and the five episodes of story about this coupling are covered there. All this coverage says "this couple is coming," but does not discuss them much further because not much as been shot or aired as yet. I'm not saying this article may not have a purpose in the future, but Silvestris seems to have a pattern of creating plot stubs and waiting for others to expand them. I don't see why this needs to exist until there is substance to it, especially when the notable info is covered elsewhere.&mdash; TAnthonyTalk 17:01, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think they say a bit more than just that but agree it's sparse. However, pop in a brief background about each character's lineage and a brief on LGBT characters in soaps and you have a decent brief stubby. If we had a good article on same-sex couples I could be swayed but my hunch is that this article would be quickly resurrected. -- Banj e  b oi   05:38, 25 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep Plenty of notable coverage.  D r e a m Focus  16:31, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.