Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Oliviu Craznic


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Ironholds (talk) 01:42, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Oliviu Craznic

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Let's start by going through the notes and links to show why they don't demonstrate notability.


 * Note 1 is a blog post by his publishers, and doesn't count as independent.
 * Suspans is not a blog, but an on-line magazine with ISSN, and is not one of his publishers, Craznic begin the colabortion with Suspans after he was interviewed by them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mihaimarian2 (talk • contribs) 15:29, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Note 2 is a blog post and is not verifiable.
 * It si verifiable, because the mention appered on a lot of other blogs and on-line magazines, most notable Realitatea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mihaimarian2 (talk • contribs) 15:29, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Note 3 is yet another blog post.
 * Note 4 is another blog post.
 * Note 5: yet another blog post.
 * Note 6, a blog post.
 * This is a blog post about an article in Familia magazine, a magazine with ISSN, well known and being published starting to XIX century. The article can be verified in Revista Familia'a archive, on net or on paper. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mihaimarian2 (talk • contribs) 15:29, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Note 7, a series of Craznic's blog posts.
 * Not blog posts, articles in a magazine with ISSN. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mihaimarian2 (talk • contribs) 15:29, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Note 8, a blog post.
 * Note 9, a blog post.
 * Note 10, a blog post.
 * Note 11, a blog post.
 * Note 12, a blog post by Craznic.
 * Note 13, a blog post by Craznic.
 * Note 14, a blog post by Craznic.
 * Note 15, a sale page for his book from his publisher.
 * Note 16, a blog post.
 * Link 1, a blog post by Craznic.
 * Link 2, a blog post.
 * Link 3, a blog post.
 * Link 4, a blog post.
 * Link 5, a blog post.
 * Link 6, Craznic's blog.
 * Link 7, his publisher's blog.
 * Link 8, a sale page for his book from his publisher.
 * Link 9, a blog post.
 * The blog posts mentioned there contains references to the books published on paper. There are all in the National Library, and in a lot of libraries all over the net.
 * Here are some mentions made not by his publishers: http://www.evenimentul.ro/articol/prima-antologie-de-steampunk-romanesc.html http://www.teenpress.ro/interviuri/interviu-oliviu-craznic/ http://www.sfin.ro/articol_22829/roman_romanesc_cu_vampiri_nemti_din_franta.html There are a lot more, it is enough to check the net. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mihaimarian2 (talk • contribs) 15:29, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Next, let's note that Craznic receives essentially no mention in Romania's leading newspapers: Evenimentul Zilei, Cotidianul, Adevărul, Jurnalul Naţional, Gândul.


 * These are not cultural magazines. Still there is mentions in other very popular not cultural magazines, as TV Satelit (no.4/2011), TVMania (no. 7/2001), Popcorn (no. 1/2011) and so on, all of these being official magazines, means having and ISSN. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mihaimarian2 (talk • contribs) 15:29, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Now, let's note that even in Romania's leading literary magazines, he receives no mention or passing mention: 22, România Literară, Observator Cultural.


 * Observator cultural mentions Craznic often enough.Familia has an article dedicated to him, the same Luceafarul de dimineata (official publication of the USR, The National Union of Romanian Writers) who also mentions him in some articles,one being dedicated entirel to him, and other literary magazines do this also.
 * Check here:
 * http://arhiva.revistafamilia.ro/, check the no.7-8/2010, an article dedicated to Craznic
 * http://www.revistaluceafarul.ro/index.html?editie=132, no. 9/2011, an entire article dedicated to him by Horia Garbea, the president of official Bucharest Writers Association (ASB)
 * http://www.revistaluceafarul.ro/index.html?id=2691&editie=117, no. 43/2010, here is mentioned his activity of Club de proza in an article by Oana Calin. Club de proza is a club for writers moderated by Constantin Stan, the president of Prose section of the official ASB.
 * http://www.jurnaluldearges.ro/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=157:i-la-sfarit-a-mai-rmas-comarul-&catid=8:cultura&Itemid=9
 * http://www.observatorcultural.ro/FANTASY-SCIENCE-FICTION.-Premiile-SF-ului-romanesc*articleID_25298-articles_details.html
 * http://www.observatorcultural.ro/FANTASY-SCIENCE-FICTION.-Playback-la-BookLand*articleID_25265-articles_details.html
 * http://www.observatorcultural.ro/FANTASY-SCIENCE-FICTION.-Final-Frontier-(I)*articleID_25167-articles_details.html
 * http://www.observatorcultural.ro/FANTASY-SCIENCE-FICTION.-O-primavara-frumoasa...*articleID_25094-articles_details.html
 * http://www.observatorcultural.ro/FANTASY-SCIENCE-FICTION.-Saptamina-SF-14-20-februarie*articleID_24996-articles_details.html
 * http://www.observatorcultural.ro/Aparitii-editoriale-2010/-autori-romani*articleID_24968-articles_details.html
 * http://www.observatorcultural.ro/Aparitii-editoriale-2010/-autori-romani*articleID_24968-articles_details.html
 * http://www.observatorcultural.ro/FANTASY-SCIENCE-FICTION.-Saptamina-SF*articleID_24834-articles_details.html
 * http://www.observatorcultural.ro/FANTASY-SCIENCE-FICTION.-2010*articleID_24688-articles_details.html
 * http://www.observatorcultural.ro/FANTASY-SCIENCE-FICTION.-Lunga-vara-fierbinte*articleID_24258-articles_details.html
 * http://www.observatorcultural.ro/FANTASY-SCIENCE-FICTION.-...si-la-sfirsit-a-mai-ramas-bucuria*articleID_23893-articles_details.html
 * etc.
 * and more:
 * in Nautilus, an ISSN magazine, well known and respected along scie-fie specialists:
 * http://revistanautilus.ro/recenzii/un-cosmar-bine-dozat/
 * http://revistanautilus.ro/articole/si-la-sfarsit-a-mai-ramas-cosmarul/
 * http://revistanautilus.ro/recenzii/singura-solutie-inc-o-revolutie/
 * http://revistanautilus.ro/editoriale/excedent-si-pib-sefistic/
 * and more, and more, and more, in many cultural magazines, most of all dedicated to science-fiction of course, though not all of them. Too many for being enlisted here.
 * Well, if this is not a notable author, I rest my case. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mihaimarian2 (talk • contribs) 15:29, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Let's also note that the article was worked on by four single-purpose accounts.

In fairness, I will observe that Craznic (actual name, Crâznic, I might add) is nominated for something called the Galileo Awards. But the prize doesn't go out for another week, and we have no idea if the award actually means anything. As of now, this is a promotional piece about a man who clearly fails WP:AUTHOR. Should his notability be demonstrated in reliable sources at a later date, the article can be rewritten from those sources. But no notability is apparent at present. - Biruitorul Talk 19:29, 21 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete I note the intense self-promotion, in the article and all over the net, but, unfortunately for the author, he seems to be utterly irrelevant to all reliable sources, and his name is discounted by even the specialized since-fiction and fantasy columns of the Romanian literary press. At best (as Soul Asylum once said:) sometime to return. Dahn (talk) 21:12, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Romania-related deletion discussions.  — • Gene93k (talk) 03:08, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions.  — • Gene93k (talk) 03:08, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

In fairness, Oliviu Craznic is very present and appreciated by science-fiction and literary magazines, as Observator cultural, Luceafarul de dimineata, Suspans, Nautilus, Familia, all this having ISSN (means they are officialy in the National Library), he was more than one time at TVR Cultural, he was at Radio Romania Cultural and at TVRM, he gained awards and his books are in many libraries. All the blogs who mention his name are specialized on literature and on science-fiction literature. Anyway, this is a clear attempt of someone who wants to deleting him (you can see the one who made the proposol, Biruitorul, means in Romanian The Winner, and he says very merry that Craznic Failed). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mihaimarian2 (talk • contribs) 15:29, 22 May 2011 (UTC) — Mihaimarian2 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Not to be deleted, keep the article, the author is very well known in our country, due to his constant presence on science fiction media (Nautilus magazine, Suspans magazine, Galileo Magazine etc..) but also on the publications related to cultural activity ( USR, ASB and other official magazines). Praising reviews of his book appear in Familia, Nautilus, Luceafarul de dimineata, Gazeta SF, Jurnalul de Arges, Curierul Vaii Jiului, Ziarul Vaii Jiului, Teenpress, Saptamana Financiara etc.. The main TV and radio cultural channels from Romania, TVR Cultural, TVR1 and Radio Romania Cultural presented more than once interviews and news about the author. He also keeps public conferences and readings, being invited by official writers clubs like Club de proza (romanian museum of literature) and others.

The links below are quite enough for me, though there is more than this, if you want to check out.

There are in Romania only four official magazines registered to National library (ISSN)dedicated to SF, fantasy &horror. All these four official magazines have extensive articles and many mentions and recordings about Oliviu Craznic. These magazines are Nautilus, Suspans, Galileo and Gazeta SF. Other important magazine is SRSFF which is not officially registered at National Library with ISSN. Still this magazine also mentiones briefly the activity of Oliviu Craznic in some articles. He also is invited periodically by the SRSFF members at Prospectart and other events so, as long as the all four official sf publications are referring to the author's activity in many and large articles, the notability is more than clear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CptSisko (talk • contribs) 15:58, 22 May 2011 (UTC) — CptSisko (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Comment - two new sockpuppets have arrived, one of whom has inserted four further links into the article. One is an Amazon sale page (no comment) two are blog posts by Craznic (same) and one is a roundup of blog posts (sigh). We're dealing with a frenzied self-promoter, but one who apparently hasn't read WP:RS, WP:V, WP:SELFPUB, WP:N, WP:AUTH and a slew of other policies. - Biruitorul Talk 17:28, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Well, again - the presence on Amazon atests some notability. The blog posts by Craznic contain links to other blog post, and also to an official publication with ISSN. And you can see above I added DOZENS of links from OFFICIAL publications WITH ISSN. What is so hard to understand? The one who put the notes was not inspired in choosing more blog posts than official publications, but this not makes Craznic less present in official magazines. Sorry to dissapoint, Biruitorule. However, let's let aside the accusations and let us let the administrators check the links added in this discussion (Observator cultural, Nautilus, Familia, Suspans, Luceafrul de dimineata mainly - all being OFFICIAL MAGAZINES WITH ISSN, not blogs, not sites, not anything like this. ) Note: I just added in the article only links to official registered publications of Romanian National Library, changing most of the links as Nausyk suggested. We have now a majority of reliable and verifiable links, all of them related to well-known and respect cultural magazines, some dedicated to sci-fi, some to mainstream, all of them writing extensively and/or often about Oliviu Craznic. I ask the administrators to check those links and take the decision based on them and on the other links above, not on arguments ill-intended. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mihaimarian2 (talk • contribs) 17:57, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

My conclusion to this debate is that, though only some of the notes and links in the articles are reliable, most indicating other sources to be check, most of the links added above in this page are verifiable and reliable, being links to cultural registered magazines and newspapers, and containing both passing notes and extensive articles about the literary activity of Oliviu Craznic. This article is to be kept, my proposal is to change some of the links and notes inserted in the article with more reliable sources, which can be taken from this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nausyk (talk • contribs) 18:37, 22 May 2011 (UTC) — Nausyk (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Keep the article, the notability proved by reliable links to official ISSN magazines. All science fiction magazines wrote about the book (large and many articles) and some of the official cultural magazines ( Familia, Luceafarul de dimineata etc..)did this also. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sawyar (talk • contribs) 13:56, 23 May 2011 (UTC) — Sawyar (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Let's summarize. 1. We have extended articles (sometimes a few pages) about Oliviu Craznic in ALL four science fiction magazines registered at Romanian National Library (Nautilus, Suspans, Gazeta SF, Galileo), and in a lot of other non-registered publications (for example, Agentia de carte is a site administrated by two officials of ASB, Bucharest Writers Association, one of them, Cipariu, being also one of the presidents of ASB, which makes this kind of sites being reliable and verifiable). See links above and check the net for others, because I checked and they are a lot. Though what we have here is more than enough. 2. We have some extended articles and a lot of passing or briefly mentions in cultural registered magazines (some of them being official publications of Union of Romanian Writers), with a strong tradition in Romanian cultural world, such as Familia, Luceafarul de dimineata, Observator cultural etc.See links above and check the net for others, because I checked and they are a lot. Though what we have here is more than enough. 3. We have important writers and critics with reviews about Craznic, such as Liviu Radu and Horia Garbea etc. (members of the official Union of Romanian Writers, Garbea being also the president of ASB)See links above and check the net for others, because I checked and they are a lot. Though what we have here is more than enough. 4. We have both extended articles and briefly notes in a lot of newspapers and magazines all over the country (even Pitesti - Junralul de arges, Hunedoara - Curierul Vaii Jiului, Oradea - Familia, Cluj - TV Satelit, Brasov - Caiete silvane, of course Bucharest etc), in popular publications (such as Popcorn and TV mania), and all over the sites and blogs dealing with science fiction or at least with general literature. 5. We have at least shows at TVRM and TVRCultural, at Radio Romania Cultural, and some passing mentions on TVR1, which means presence in the television and radio media also (of course, at cultural channels). 6. We have public conferences, one of them being at the Museum Of Romaninan Literature, a public reading at the invitation of Constantin Stan, the president of Prose Section in the official ASB, and at least 2 public debates on Final Frontier, the single Science Fiction Festival in Romania, both debates being noted in Observator cultural and other media as being most succesfull. 7. Most of the blog posts are not simply blog posts, being in fact electronic official magazines (Suspans), containing links to official electronic magazines (Galileo), containting easy verifiable quotations from written papers (Familia) etc. 8. The Galileo Awards did mean something, as long as they are the awards of an official registered magazine with ISSN, and they are mentioned in Observator cultural and other official literary magazines. These are also the singe science fiction awards of a Romanian magazine, and they consists in important money, trophee and diploma. 9. All of these were achieved by Craznic in less than an year from his first appearance in the cultural world. This means he is more than notabale, as long as old writers cannot get more than passing mentions in such magazines as Familia, Luceafarul, Observator, and very few writers gain more than one mention there. Keep the article. Notable author, third-parties attests this, non-promotional article, containing only facts recongnized in Romaninan  literature. Nota bene: there is a well-known fight between science fiction parties in Romania This is probable an attempt of an envious rival. Note the Biruitorul is a Romanian. This is at least strange, to want so bad to delete from wikipedia a colleague. And this debate itself is a proof of notability. Otherwise, what would insist so much a ROMANIAN with the deletion?! Just check the links above, you'll see Craznic is considered a very important youn writer, who managed to surpass a lot of old ones - this of course was not very pleasent for them... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jtanners (talk • contribs) 14:46, 23 May 2011 (UTC)   — Jtanners (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. Another strogn reason to keep the article according to WP:Author is Craznic introduced the gothic in Romanian Literature (see in the links above at Familia - The Walpole Moment in Romanian Literature). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mihaimarian2 (talk • contribs) 05:24, 24 May 2011 (UTC) WELL, CRAZNIC JUST WAS ANNOUNCED TO BE THE WINNER OF GALILEO AWARDS FOR THE BEST NOVEL OF THE YEAR, ANNOUNCEMENT BEING MADE IN GALILEO ONLINE, OFFICIAL REGISTERED MAGAZINE AT NATIONAL LIBRARY. THE FESTIVITY OF GALILEO AWARDS WILL BE KEPT TOMORROW AT BOOKFEST, THE BIGGEST BOOK FESTIVAL IN ROMANIA. THE GUESTS AT THE FESTIVITY OF CRAZNIC'S AWARD ARE OFFICIAL MEMBERS OF USR, UNION OF ROMANIAN WRITERS - SUCH AS LIVIU RADU, ONA FRANTZ, MICHAEL HAULICA ETC., ALL OF THEM MULTIPLE-AWARDED ALONG THEIR CARRIERS, AND TRANSLATE DIN MANY LANGUEGES. NOT-NOTABILITY? ILLWILL AND NOTHING ELSE. IT IS NOW THE MOST NOTABLE FANTASY WRITER IN ROMANIA. KEEP THE ARTICLE, YOU HAVE ALL THE PROOFS POSSIBLE - NO DISCUSSION CAN BE NOW. http://revista-galileo.ro/laurea%c8%9bii-premiilor-galileo-2011.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mihaimarian2 (talk • contribs) 14:56, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Eh, let's not get that excited over some blog post in some random magazine holding some publicity-generating event. There's still precious little evidence that Craznic is "regarded as an important figure by peers", "has created a significant or well-known work", or that his work "has won significant critical attention" (WP:AUTHOR) or that he "has been the subject of multiple published secondary sources which are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject" (WP:BIO). As I showed earlier, the man, despite his frenetic self-promotion, is utterly irrelevant to all reliable sources, where he receives at best passing mention. - Biruitorul Talk 16:04, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

The expression "brand new magazine" creates the impression Galileo is a new magazine, made by some new, unknown amateurs - it is not the case. The magazine could be "brand new", but its administrators are clearly not - they are experienced writers from the Union of Romanian Writers (prime members), and they also had a column of literary critic in Observator cultural, official cultural magazine with long back tradition. So this brand new awards are an effort of the old and reknown promoters. These awards are taken very seriously on the literary world - you can see it was published even a book with the texts nominated. The awards were announced in Observator cultural, Nautilus and other ISSN magazines, and on most cultural sites and blogs in Romania. They were also announced on the official national cultural Radio Romania Cultural. Keep the article. Also, the awards consists in money, trophee, diploma, a festivity at the most important Book Festival and also in publishing the nominee texts in a book. This is not looking minor to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CptSisko (talk • contribs) 21:47, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Again, Biruitorul does not get it. It is not a blog post, it is an article in an official magazine. And the above sources and links, all reliable as I already show, being all official magazines, had extended articles, not passing mentions. This is not a single statement from Biruitorul which can be close to the truth: he says these are blog posts, when they are articles in official registered cultural magazines; he says they are passing mentions, when in fact are extendend articles; he says the sources are note reliable, when they clearly are, as long as they have the official ISSN; etc. Well, I end the talk here, being all to clear to me. I will not answer to Biruitorul or his friends any longer - it is clear malevolence and denying the clear truth. I ask the administrators of this site to check again the links inserted here in this discussion, this says pretty much all. I believe it is not possible to ignore dozens and dozens of links to official magazines (NOT blogposts). So - do your decision please, but keep this in mind: let the facts and the links speak,not false arguments contrary to reality (blog post, yeah, luceafarul de dimineata, familia and nautilus are blog posts - this is an offens to the romanian culture, and to the science fiction romanian culture also. sad.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mihaimarian2 (talk • contribs) 18:17, 27 May 2011 (UTC) Though a new award, the Galileo Award is a major one - practically there is no science fiction fan in Romania who does not read the Galileo online version, along with Nautilus, Suspans and Gazeta. We have only these four magazines for science fiction, so we read them all. But this is subjectiv. An objective proof of the importance of these awards: The festivity was today the subject of Radio Romania Cultural, the most important official cultural radio channel in Romania (Oliviu Craznic was guest at the show). As the links above attests, these awards are also mentioned in official cultural magazines (e.g.Observator cultural) and in official science fiction magazines (e.g.Nautilus). More articles of course will appear soon, after the festivity. The festivity also had official important speakers, like Liviu Radu (Union of Romanian Writers Member), Michael Haulica (the same), Mircea Oprita (the most important Romanian critic in science fiction after the death of Ion Hobana and officialy made Knight and Sir by our president for his literary activity), Catalin Badea Gheracostea (important critic) etc. A guest was also Alexandru Mironov, well-known in Romanian Science Fiction, and other Florin Pitea, University professor and critic. Also, this brand new magazine features only important Romanian and foreign writers, which itself attests its importance on Romanian market. Let us mention that Robert Silverberg himself is working on a regular basis with Galileo. However, having an award is not essential condition for notability. Wikipedia states clear that A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of multiple published secondary sources which are reliable, intellectually independent of each other,and independent of the subject. We have here Observator cultural, Familia, Luceafarul de dimineata, Nautilus, Suspans (before Craznic began to write articles for this magazine), Gazeta SF (before Craznic was published here - he was published in Suspans and Gazeta SF FOR his notability, after he gained it), Jurnalul de Arges, Popcorn, TV Mania, TV Satelit, Curierul Vaii Jiului, Caiete silvane, Ziarul Vaii Jiului, SRSFF, and a lot more secondary sources, reliable, independent of each other and of the subject. Wikipedia also states If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability; but it is not necessary, almost all the mentioned sourced cover deeply Oliviu Craznic's work (more articles, some of them having over 2 pages long about his book). Important is the author is a constant presence in official science fiction magazines (in ALL of them), and in some very important and with old tradition official cultural magazines, at official Radio Cultural, at official TVR Cultural and TVR1, at public debates (two of them at the Museum of National Literature, at Club de proza, official club of Constantin Stan, the president of Prose Section in Bucharest Writers Association), and so on and so forth. But I already told this. We can go like this forever, if the friends of Biruitorul enters and say that every link is a blog (though clearly is not, being official magazines), that every award is unimportant, that every magazine is not notable etc. These are not arguments - in this manner, I could saz that Hugo Awards are not important, because they are announced on a blog posts, and because the jury is made from unknown persons. So delete all the books with Hugo Awards. The importance of the award is given by how is looked in the science fiction world in that country - and the most reknown science fiction writers and critics took Galileo seriously. I do not know why you shouldn't do the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mihaimarian2 (talk • contribs) 18:23, 28 May 2011 (UTC) Also: he won significant critical attention, this being more than clear if the links in this talk are checked. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mihaimarian2 (talk • contribs) 19:06, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete The subject does not meet the criteria of WP:AUTHOR at this time. The Galileo Award is not a major award; it is a brand-new award given by a brand-new (2010) magazine. --MelanieN (talk) 15:52, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The above deletion debate is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the talk page of either this nomination or the nominated user). No further edits should be made to this page.