Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Omid Kamkar Lotfi


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. English sources are not as reliable as they could be, but no agreement reached on how unlikely solid Farsi sources are to be found (non-admin closure) Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 06:45, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Omid Kamkar Lotfi

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

I declined a speedy on this (placed with the rationale of "nn-autobio") as it appears to take a run at providing notability of sorts; it seems there may be enough to this person for an article, if references can be found. Discussion required; consider me neutral. Tony Fox (arf!) 23:00, 18 September 2008 (UTC) Tony Fox (arf!) 23:00, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.   --  Fabrictramp  |  talk to me  00:49, 19 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I AM omid lotfi ! and think this article is better THAN nothing. I have seen many article worse than this ! like this one... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashang_Kamkar What is this ? only 4 lines ! At least mine was about 20 lines + my website. Anyways, I thought it is BETTER mention my name in here and now I am just about to forget it ALL. Regards ! after all, who cares about WIKI these days. Yours, o m i D —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omidlotfi (talk • contribs) 01:49, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
 * please do not give up--we would be very glad to have the article, if you can give some published references to the extent to which your work is recognized, instead of just asserting it is. surely you have reviews? DGG (talk) 04:56, 19 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete - little evidence of notability. Unlike DGG, I suggest that Omid should give up - as always, leave it to others to write about you. - Sgroupace (talk) 20:01, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, —  Xy7   (talk)  00:09, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep: Most of Omid's fellow members of The Kamkars already have articles, and he seems to have done some touring with them and with his father. Look him up. Look up his background. There's an article here. Sure, this article is overly fluffy, but there's real content to preserve, and the subject passes notability pretty easily. Avram (talk) 07:06, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep . "it seems there may be enough to this person for an article". AfD is not for cleanup. Expand and source, don't delete. --Reinoutr (talk) 13:16, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete: AfD is not for cleanup?  Really?  Nice to be chided.  How about being for articles that do not establish the notability, that say only that the person practices meditation and performs.  An artist biography should establish the notability of the performer, and that includes the recording information, the reception, etc.  You can't borrow notability from the group you're in, and you can't be encyclopedic because of your yoga.  Utgard Loki (talk) 17:32, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Iran-related deletion discussions.   -- John Vandenberg (chat) 02:46, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Cirt (talk) 05:00, 28 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment Omid, can you speak to how you meet WP:MUSIC, which is the standard for inclusion in Wikipedia. What's in the article doesn't seem to cover it. Jclemens (talk) 06:19, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep: While borderline in my mind, it seems that Mr. Lotfi is a recognized artist of notability within his genre. I added a couple of sources and a line about music lessons. While I do not like sourcing geocities sites, the source seems legitimate. Coastalsteve984 (talk) 13:02, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete Although he might be very talented he has not yet attracted the attention of secondary sources. Something posted on geocites doesn't quite make it. It just proves he has one fan. Northwestgnome (talk) 16:31, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment I've done some copying and pasting into Google of some of the Farsi from the Farsi version of The Kamkars and their website, and I think it looks like there are some more significant sources out there. Can someone here read Farsi enough to find some Farsi-language sources? It looks like there's a strong discography that is well-documented, just not in English. Avram (talk) 17:21, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete: when the author is the subject, and they tell me that "His performing is technically flawless, powerful, and strongly emotional," I can't trust anything else in there unless there are some serious and independent references. Drmies (talk) 18:14, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * CommentIf you'd recheck the new source that was added, the description is apparently valid. Yes, it's a Geocities site, but, it's not just some fan. It's a San Diego-based music groups site, which has dozens of reviews of various artists, including this one. The review indicated his technical prowess, and states that he played to a venue filled to capacity. Coastalsteve984 (talk) 01:08, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment If they were important and wanted to be taken seriously, they wouldn't be on Geocities. Jclemens (talk) 01:38, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment We should remember that we are not dealing with a leading American musician, and it would be wrong to assume that evidence of notability or reliability is equivalent across languages and cultures. From my experience with Russian sources, I can say it is _very_ common for even significant institutions to use free hosting services, so you see GeoCities and Hotmail equivalents in many unexpected places. The Geocities page appears to be as reliable as anything; indeed, why should we discriminate between people who buy domain names and people who don't? Finally, this looks like the English-language tip of the iceberg here; I strongly believe we need a Farsi speaker to put this to rest. Avram (talk) 01:52, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment I agree a Farsi speaker would be helpful, but if we start certifying free hosting services as reliable sources if and only if they're not in English, then we face issues of reverse ethnocentrism--giving non-English sources a free pass, as it were. Jclemens (talk) 01:58, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment My point is not that being on Geocities makes something reliable, but rather that being on Geocities no more makes something unreliable than something having its own domain name makes it reliable. I bring up relativism because I have personally noted that in some cultures it seems to be less obligatory to register domain names in order to be respected. But yes, I would extend this to English sources as well. Avram (talk) 02:13, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete per the lack of evidence that he passses WP:MUSIC. Jclemens (talk) 01:38, 29 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.