Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/On the Jews and Their Lies (excerpts)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result of the debate was No consensus. Deathphoenix ʕ 18:00, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

On the Jews and Their Lies (excerpts)
Just a bunch of quotations from On the Jews and Their Lies. There is already an external link to such a collection of excerpts in the original article. I think the work is old enough for there not to be any copyright issues, but if that's the way we want to quarterback this it should be complete and on Wikisource. Wikiquote is an option, too, perhaps, but I would oppose an interwiki redirect. That's not to say that some of the quotes shouldn't be used in the article if they can be incorporated into the text. savidan(talk) (e@) 22:14, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Since the article was copyright 1971 and the copyright was renewed, there are copyright considerations for linking to the full text as has been attempted in the past. Please see the relevant discussion:. The excerpts constitute legal use as far as can be determined, though. They had been placed into the original article, but length considerations motivated their removal to a separate article. Either the excerpts could be reproduced in the main article, or a link the the webpage might suffice. --Drboisclair 22:31, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I just ran into Talk:Martin Luther/Copyright of Luther's Works as well. It appears the copyright situation is even more complex. However, this article is unencyclopedic in either case. savidan(talk) (e@) 22:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep - the quotes are not copyright. This is one of the most important books from that time period. Its political content shouldn't disqualify it from inclusion. - Richardcavell 23:00, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The quotes are most definitely under copyright. In addition, I have contacted the publisher. They state that they have never granted permission for this work to be copied in any form. So, the text is being used without their permission. The excerpts may be used, not because they are Public domain, but because it is Fair use to do so. --CTSWyneken 01:50, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep. The quotes were originally in On the Jews and Their Lies (Martin Luther), but made the article too long, which is why they were moved to this page. I can see no good reason to delete it. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:04, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep. As per Richardcavell and SlimVirgin. Jayjg (talk) 23:18, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Transwiki as per CanadianCaesar if I am permitted to change my vote. I have not deleted my original post here. I beg your pardon for the mixup.--Drboisclair 23:38, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Original vote that I wish to change to Transwiki: (*Weak Delete. The excerpts come from a translation of this work that is copyrighted, but the excerpts are deemed "fair use"(?). Why not simply merge them back with the main article or simply link to where they are posted at Fordham University. My vote would be to Merge this article with the original.--Drboisclair 23:22, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * So is your vote to merge or delete? They are completely different things!  CanadianCaesar Cæsar is turn’d to hear 23:28, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * My vote would then be to delete as per your comments. --Drboisclair 23:30, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Transwiki unencyclopedic. CanadianCaesar Cæsar is turn’d to hear 23:28, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Transwiki to wikiquote. Tag added. &mdash;Viriditas | Talk 23:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Transwiki to wikiquote. changing vote to Delete as quotations have already been added to wikiquote. Homey 23:48, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep It was moved to it's own article since it made the main On the Jews and Their Lies (Martin Luther) article to long. --Shlomke 00:01, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep As the editor that originally brought the excerpts to On the Jews and Their Lies, and repeatedly dealt with attempts to delete it and attempts to delete links to sites with the excerpts, I would like to point out that despite this work being written 500 hundred years ago, it has only recently been translated into English.  Many would like to keep it hidden, as even the editors of the original translation point out.Doright 00:12, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Additional note: After reading the comments here, I have to admit that as a newbie, I'm not familar with the term transwiki nor with wikiquote. So, I think it's prudent to Keep this here, in addition to wikiquote.  After all, what's the cost?Doright 03:24, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment Please note for the record that user Doright has persistently tried to link to the copyright infringing version of this text, contrary to WP:COPY. He does this once again in the above comment. Please note that the full text is infringing, but the excerpts are acceptable due to Fair use. --CTSWyneken 12:41, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Repy to Comment Indeed, for the record please note the comments of another senior editor:"'The article currently has a brief summary of a larger article, Martin Luther and Antisemitism, but it appears to me that several editors are trying to either whitewash the contents of the summary, or remove any summary at all, on various grounds which I see as spurious (e.g. we can't quote from works because that might be a copyright violation, or we shouldn't summarize at all because that will increase interest in the sub-article). Jayjg (talk) 18:31, 15 November 2005 (UTC) "CTSW, please do not make this into yet another one of your personal attack pages.  It is not appropriate.Doright 19:38, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Transwiki to wikiquote. Seems like a good candidate. –Abe Dashiell (t/c) 00:17, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Transwiki to wikiquote, which is what we do with lists of quotes. Then a wikiquote template linking to these quotes can be added to the On the Jews and Their Lies (Martin Luther) article. -- M P er el ( talk 01:02, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Update: I went ahead and added the quotes to wikiquote here, whether this article is deleted or not the quotes can go there, and I added the wikiquote template to the See also section of the On the Jews and Their Lies (Martin Luther) article to link to the wikiquote version. The only other article besides project and user pages linking to this page is History of the Jews in Germany, which can link to wikiquote instead as well. -- M P er el ( talk 01:30, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€  01:21, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Transwike to wikiquote, per above. --StanZegel  (talk) 01:33, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:NPS. For copyright status, see User Cecropia's Opinion. Link to excerpt files works well enough. No need to mirror. --CTSWyneken 01:55, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Are you saying exerpts are primary sources? Are you saying excerpts are a copyright violation too? Doright 03:24, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete as NOT a collection of quotes, but thankfully we have sister projects that are. Kotepho 02:09, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Transwiki. This is pretty clearly not an encyclopedia article.--Pharos 03:51, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep per slimvirgin.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 06:36, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Transwiki to wikiquote. Pecher Talk 06:50, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep because lengthy articles are often split up to make them more readable and functional, otherwise this will get lost on Transwiki and slip into oblivion, rather than remaining clearly connected to On the Jews and Their Lies (Martin Luther). IZAK 10:25, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment: the content of this article has been copied to: Wikiquote.--CTSWyneken 12:23, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

"Verso of the Title Page, Luther's Works, Vol. 47, 'The Christian in Society': (c) 1971 Fortress Press, Library of Congress Number 55-9893, ISBN 0-8006-0347-8"
 * Would keep it. Foreigner 12:42, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Transwiki works for me; otherwise keep. It's unfortunate content, but still valid. &mdash; RJH 15:03, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Transwiki in full and link in main article on Martin Luther. Work is clearly in the public domain or -- in response to the comment below -- would clearly fall under fair use. --Mantanmoreland 18:29, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment: This work is most definitely protected by copyright law. It was first copyrighted in 1971:


 * All works originally copyrighted after 1964 had their copyrights renewed by act of Congress:

"'Public Law 102-307, enacted on June 26, 1992, amended the copyright law to make renewal automatic and renewal registration optional for works originally copyrighted between January 1, 1964 and December 31, 1977.' United States Copyright Office, Circular 15"


 * For a Neutral opinion, see User Cecropia's Opinion--CTSWyneken 18:46, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep This article, while the title may seem controversial, is a great article. It is well written, the quotes are appropriate, and overall the article is very descriptive. Thetruthbelow(talk)  20:02, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Transwiki to wikiquote Zeq 10:13, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Transwiki No doubt that this is all valid info, but if it's strictly quotes then it should be at wikiquote, not here. Sumergocognito 21:21, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Subsequent Comment I'm pretty sure reprinting an entire work can never be fair use. The original German however is public domain, no?  Couldn't it be at wikisource? Sumergocognito 01:53, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Reply to Comment: You are correct. If a work is under copyright, then it cannot be reproduced in full without permission. Re the original text, in short, yes, the German is public domain. However, Wikisource is limited to English texts. If someone wants to digitize it, however, I would find it a home on the internet. --CTSWyneken 03:22, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Transwiki per above. Doesn't belong in an encyclopedia, that's for sure.  KleenupKrew 00:36, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Why don't you believe that it belongs in an encyclopedia? Thetruthbelow(talk)  02:11, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment An encyclopedia is a place for a general article on the book. The collection of quotes belongs at Wikiquote. KleenupKrew 01:56, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

-- M P er el ( talk 03:23, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment. In case anybody missed it, I've transwiki'd the page to Wikiquote.  This essentially "keeps" the material, but in the more appropriate place, namely, at the project specifically set aside for collections of quotations.  It would seem repetitious to keep the page in Wikipedia.  Do we really need it in both places?  For pages that reference this quotation collection, instead of a link to a WP article like this: On the Jews and Their Lies (excerpts), one would put in the WQ template like this:
 * delete this is hate speach propaganda and should be gone NOW! Wombdpsw 05:49, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Question Could you explain this is "hate speach propaganda? The issue with this article is not that it is an attack page, so if you could, will you please explain your previous comment? Thetruthbelow[[Image:Wikipedia minilogo.gif|20px]] (talk) 23:54, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete There is already this page on the book, and a collection of quotes does not belong on Wikipedia, but on Wikiquote. It's already on Wikiquote and so.. Delete! --A Sunshade Lust 06:47, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. per A Sunshade Lust. --Ian Pitchford 12:01, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Transwiki or delete. List of excerpts is not encyclopedic article. Pavel Vozenilek 20:38, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. Providing quotes has nothing to do with Wikipedia.  Keep the link, delete the quotes page.--Thalia42 22:37, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep Its very important to see that the world's biggest contender of the Catholic Church was himself an anti-semite. Very important to history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Puckmv (talk • contribs)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.