Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Onești attack


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Notnews applies. If someone wants to cover it a list I'd be willing to history restore under a redirect Spartaz Humbug! 16:07, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Onești attack

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Essentially a local news story; it’s highly unlikely this has the making of an encyclopedically notable event. - Biruitorul Talk 23:25, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 23:26, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Romania-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 23:26, 1 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete agree with nom. Local news event. Oaktree b (talk) 23:58, 1 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Neutral Comment for & ; Not sure if you knew this or not, but it is listed on Portal:Current events.  Multiple editors have seen it and no challenges to it yet.  Not sure what that means for the discussion, but it might not be local news. Elijahandskip (talk) 01:30, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The relevant question is: “do we, an encyclopedia, cover a routine story about how some guy in a little town tied up, then stabbed to death a pair of workmen in his former apartment?”
 * The fact that the article creator linked the story on a portal, and that whoever viewed it in the ensuing hours didn’t see fit to remove said link, has no bearing on the matter, as far as I can see. - Biruitorul Talk 02:15, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Normally that would be the case, but the Current Event Portal gets an average of 60,000 views daily. Articles have to have high notability to remain listed there.  Elijahandskip (talk) 02:38, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Point taken, but this right here is the proper venue for determining notability. Removing a link on a portal does not constitute a firm judgment call as to notability — first, because the article still exists; and second, because link removal is done without consensus, whereas deletion requires it. Let’s discuss the case on the merits, rather than getting caught up in the portal issue. - Biruitorul Talk 03:24, 2 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete Nothing major, we have thousands of such incidents in the world every year. I mean it is bad for the family but this should not be even on the Romanian Wikipedia in my opinion. Piatra Neamț fire is one thing, this is totally different my friend. Even the Piatra Neamț fire might not even need to be on the English Wiki. On Romania yes. It was not really a Colectiv or an "Indian type" event. Imagine Wikipedia is an encyclopedia after all. It must be a bigger event or a serial, mass murder. .karellian-24 (talk) 09:42, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Strong keep: the entire hostige crisis and the crime after was without precedent in Romania, and probably very rare in Europe. This is not a routine stabbing like more others in recent times. - Eugεn  S¡m¡on  10:11, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 10:39, 2 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment I know it is not a family homicide, but there are such lists on Wikipedia. List of rampage killers (familicides in Europe). Homicides happen in Europe as well, not just in the US. It is not a huge mass murder, why don't you open such a list? With homicides for instance. .karellian-24 (talk) 11:43, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment If you want to count something, open as well a list for National Anticorruption Directorate arrests. .karellian-24 (talk) 11:43, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) Can we not be so sensationalist about this? One disturbed fellow tied up two other anonymous guys for four hours. That’s not exactly a “hostage crisis”.
 * 2) Do you have any evidence, expressed in reliable sources, that this incident is “without precedent”?
 * 3) This was an actual hostage crisis, it’s clearly notable — and it happened in Romania, belying your “without precedent” claim. — Biruitorul Talk 14:01, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete - This does not seem to be a particularly major event. Home invasions happen everywhere in the world every day, and there are always murders that ensue from particularly brutal ones every other day. No country is exempted from that. Love of Corey (talk) 03:14, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep. This event was a hostage incident with casualities. Incidents like this do not happen every day. There are a lot of articles about hostage events without deaths. - Gsvadds (talk) 08:02, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Most of those at least happened in public places (schools, malls, restaurants, etc) and involved large crowds. Two people inside a private apartment really stretches the notion of “hostage crisis”. - Biruitorul Talk 15:03, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep. This event was all over the Romanian news, so it's better if we fix it instead of deleting something that is actually interesting on an encyclopedia. Editoneer (talk) 13:38, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
 * See WP:PERSISTENCE: “a burst or spike of news reports does not automatically make an incident notable. Events that are only covered in sources published during or immediately after an event, without further analysis or discussion, are likely not suitable for an encyclopedia article.”
 * Of course, since it just happened, we cannot know how much coverage there will be in the future. But I’m fairly confident it will fade in short order. - Biruitorul Talk 15:03, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep many of Romania's most important and well-known newspapers have talked about this event. Not many international ones did, but they didn't talk about other events in Romania with an article too much either. In my opinion, the event is notable enough. Super   Ψ   Dro  14:25, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep per Super   Ψ   Dro . Dan the Animator 21:37, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The problem with that argument is that it’s based on a mistaken premise. Nobody outside Romania has covered this incident, as far as I can tell.
 * The last big news story in Romania, the Piatra Neamț hospital fire, was covered by prestigious international outlet after outlet after outlet after outlet after outlet after outlet after outlet after outlet.
 * Personally, I don’t think international coverage is a requirement for demonstrating notability; we should judge on the merits. But to say that “international newspapers didn't talk about other events in Romania with an article too much” is untrue, and its untruth is quite easily demonstrable. - Biruitorul Talk 21:48, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Hardly any event will surpass or equal the notoriety that the Piatra Neamț hospital fire had. I was thinking more about some others like the Socola hospital fire or the 2018 Brăila attack. Super   Ψ   Dro  10:10, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Brăila seems ripe for deletion, at least. — Biruitorul Talk 14:21, 4 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Strong keep: It's not presented only in the local press. It's very spread in the entire Romania by the all national mass-media. Everyday it's the headline in the news in my country and I think will be for a long time. Keep it please, because for our country is notorious User:Romanichthys Valsanicola 08:12, 4 March 2021 (EET)
 * 1) There is no local press in Onești, so by definition, the event cannot be covered by local news. It will be covered by the not very extensive national market.
 * 2) “Everyday it's the headline in the news in my country” is demonstrably false — look here and here and here and you’ll see it’s already basically gone from the discourse.
 * 3) We cannot know how long coverage will continue.
 * 4) I realize this is your first AfD, and only your fourth edit of the past year, but please do try and make an effort. — Biruitorul Talk 14:21, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 10:53, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Ritchie333 makes a reasonable point that one option might be to take this out of the mainspace and see what happens, and admittedly, relisting will effectively do that while keeping it in the mainspace. I just don't see a sufficient consensus to draftify or delete at this time. For now, there seems to be sufficient coverage to let this discussion play out for another week and assess at that time.
 * Comment, why was this article created so soon after the event (article states this occurred on 1 March and the article was created on 1 March), how could an assessment of been made that it is wikisignificant with lasting consequences (see WP:EVENT)? Coolabahapple (talk) 11:52, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep - has recieved widespread national and international coverage. Too soon to make a judgement about notability in 6 months but today this is within WP:GNG.BabbaQ (talk) 12:50, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I said above I don’t consider international coverage that significant, but since you’ve made the claim, could you please point out which news sites outside Romania have brought up the story? — Biruitorul Talk 14:21, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
 * As with Biruitorul above, I'd be curious to see what examples you are using for "widespread national and international coverage". Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs  talk 20:25, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Weak keep notability is essentially a shortcut for "from reliable secondary sources, can we write a decent article about this?" The answer, I think, is yes - though I cannot verify the sources as I don't speak the language, this looks to be sources decently well enough to be notable. Elli (talk &#124; contribs) 20:21, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete—WP:NOTNEWS. This is pretty routine insofar as local or national coverage of crimes. I see next to no examples of international press suggesting it's a major story. The idea that we just leave articles lying around to see if there's enduring coverage that supports notability is backwards; if there's lasting coverage then the article could be reconsidered and recreated. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs  talk 20:25, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Draftify - put it in draft space until we can tell how sustained the news coverage is - just over a week is not enough. If it looks like it's a long-standing event, then we can put it back in mainspace. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  14:32, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete— as per WP:NOTNEWS, nothing major. CommanderWaterford (talk) 19:52, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Go  Phightins  !  01:25, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment - Just so the admins know, the article has been renamed. Love of Corey (talk) 19:11, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment — I looked into what the press has been saying lately. (The Romanian press — we never did get to see the international coverage some participants asserted exists.) The incident occurred March 1, and coverage basically stopped on March 5.
 * The attacker did recover from his wounds, and since March 5, there have been a couple of articles about the state of his health. As the criminal case proceeds, I assume there will be other mentions.
 * In sum, a week and a half later, it looks like this story was headline news for 4-5 days before abruptly fading without broader impact, which only strengthens the case for the notion that it’s a fairly routine crime that should not be covered in an encyclopedia. I don’t object to userfying for a few months. — Biruitorul Talk 19:17, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete relatively trivial local crime.  DGG ( talk ) 05:47, 21 March 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.