Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Order of battle of the Spanish Army in 1989


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. Consensus herein is for article retention. Discussion regarding the article can always continue on its talk page. (Non-administrator closure) NorthAmerica1000 06:07, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Order of battle of the Spanish Army in 1989

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

I don't understand the rationale for this article. Why have this per year? What is the significance of 1989? Who were they attacking? Rather concentrate on keeping the current info up to date. If this info is really necessary add it to a history page somewhere Gbawden (talk) 12:56, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Spain-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:45, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:45, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:45, 15 July 2014 (UTC)


 * This seems to be misusing order of battle, as it's not actually describing the Spanish armed forces "participating in a military operation or campaign" because there was no Spanish operation or campaign that year AFAIK. postdlf (talk) 16:05, 15 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Are we joking? 1989 was the end of the Cold War and for most armies in Europe we have a detailed Order of Battle for that year to show how troop strengths and dispositions were at the end of this 45 year long confrontation. Besides doing the historic OrBats I also keep the current armies up to date and the information collected for the NATO and Warsaw Orders of Battle at the end of he Cold War is WAY too much to include in the respective army articles. The NATO and Warsaw Pact Armies were organized, trained and placed to fight instantly if the Cold War went hot and therefore OrBats describing the situation at the end of War, before troop levels were drawn down, serves to understand this four decade long campaign to deter the other side. In my view this AfD discussion is spurious and should be closed instantly. noclador (talk) 17:01, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Links to the other individual countries' OrBats for 1989, please. I'm having trouble finding anything other than the NATO 1989 military structure articles (such as NORTHAG wartime structure in 1989, which is incidentally not titled "order of battle"). Category:Lists of British Army units and formations, for example, has no such list as this Spanish one. postdlf (talk) 17:44, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Category:Structure of contemporary armies. The relevant listing for the British Army is at Commander Land Forces, since that post-holder is the successor to Commander-in-Chief, Land Command. Buckshot06 (talk) 01:13, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
 * This objection would seem to be trivially solved by renaming it to "Structure of..." or "Organisation of..." (both of which would be reasonable). I don't think it affects notability either way. Andrew Gray (talk) 16:54, 17 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete since Wikipedia is not a directory . Other stuff exists is not a convincing argument for keeping this listing. Edison (talk) 17:36, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete. Listing army (or navy) compositions by year, especially in peacetime when not a lot changes very quickly, doesn't make much sense. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:49, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
 * This is an argument for doing further research based on WP:Reliable Sources, not deleting what we already have!! Buckshot06 (talk) 01:14, 17 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep this is the structure of the Spanish Army at the end of the Cold War. A War that ended in 1989. The listing also gives the wartime structure of the Spanish Army in case the Warsaw Pact would have attacked, as Land Forces Command would have fallen under NATO SACEUR with the 1st Armored and 3rd Mechanized Divisions becoming mobile reserves for either NATO LANDSOUTH in Italy or for NATO CENTAG/NORTHAG in Germany. The article needs to be expanded to include this information and it needs to be tied in with other Cold War end articles. noclador (talk) 14:42, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Very Strong Keep I am absolutely appalled at the nominator's WP:RECENTIST attitude. Every unit on this list, and others, can be tied through multiple WP:Reliable Sources and is independently WP:Notable via the WP:GNG. The title may be a little misleading, due to this being effectively the Organisation of the Spanish Army in 1989, but nobody here with any historical knowledge should have to ask why any editor would spend hundreds of hours amassing this material - it depicts the Spanish Army at the end of the Cold War. It also forms the basis for further research on military organisation, sociology, etc of the Spanish Army on Wikipedia.
 * Gbwaden, this page is too large to add it to a history page for the Spanish Army, and thus it sits separately. I am going to alert the WT:MILHIST community to this listing, and seriously, if you continue to list historical lists of ships, units, etc, for deletion, I will have no option but to call for an RfC-U. This kind of material is unquestionably notable, has significant historical value, and is the basis for further expansion. Please desist in listing such material for deletion. Buckshot06 (talk) 01:11, 17 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep The ending of the Cold War was an epoch in the history of the Spanish armed forces (and other NATO / WP). Hamish59 (talk) 09:04, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Seriously? Did the Spanish Army play any notable part in the Cold War at any time? Did its order of battle have any connection to the end of the conflict? (Also still waiting for comparable lists for other armies.) Clarityfiend (talk) 10:52, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
 * It seems you know nothing about NATO, the Cold War, the War Time Structure of NATO, etc. and thus can't comprehend that these list are important to understand the Cold War. I suggest you go and read a few dozen books as we at MilHist did before deciding to work on compiling this lists. If you have to ask what part the Spanish Army played in the Cold War, and what connection it had to the end of the War - a) that shows you're clueless about the topic and b) to fill you in: notable because maximum historic extent; switched to standard NATO gear, structure, codes; provided reserves, for 3x theaters of operation: AFSOUTH, AFNORTH, AFCENT as directed by SACEUR (similar to French Army which served as reserve for AFSOUTH-LANDSOUTH and AFCENT); blocking of straits of Gibraltar; securing NATO Lines of Communication if Rhine Line breached, etc. etc. etc. and as for connection to the end of conflict: the addition of the Spanish Military and NATO's technological improvement of its forces pushed the Soviet Union into higher defense expenditures for ever more troops, and these expenditures ultimately bankrupted and destroyed the Warsaw Pact. Last but not least: I am not telling you where the other lists are to prevent you from doing more of your frivolous and ridiculous wanton destruction of relevant, important and useful articles. noclador (talk) 11:55, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Apparently you know nothing about WP:CIVIL. You're not telling me where the other lists are? Show a little maturity. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:03, 20 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep per Buckshot06, Hamish59, and Noclador. Article identifies the military structure of a major European power as part of an alliance with other nations at the conclusion of a decades-long ideological struggle. W. B. Wilson (talk) 07:29, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep per the above. This represents the end of Cold War-peak of the Spanish Army. Nick-D (talk) 00:05, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep there seems to be a fairly clear rationale for covering the ORBAT of the Spanish Army at the end of the Cold War. Anotherclown (talk) 09:49, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.