Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Oren Eizenman


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Consensus is for the article to be retained. North America1000 11:37, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Oren Eizenman

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fails WP:NHOCKEY and WP:GNG Joeykai (talk) 06:56, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep Comment (switched; see discussion below, he fails GNG and WP:NHOCKEY is a very ambiguous SNG) He does pass WP:NHOCKEY in several points.
 * Played one or more games in an existing or defunct top professional league;
 * Played one or more games in an amateur league considered, through lack of a professional league, the highest level of competition extant;
 * He played for the Korean High1 and Japanese Nippon Paper Cranes teams in the Asia League Ice Hockey. The Korean and Japanese Ice hockey Leagues are defunct, and the Asia League Ice Hockey replaced them, which makes it the highest league in those countries. It is also a professional league, he therefore passes point 1. Even if you don't want to consider the AHL as "top professional" for whatever reason, he still passes per point 2, because its the highest league in Japan and Korea.
 * Played on a senior national team (such as at the Olympic Games or World Championship)
 * He played for several years in the Israeli senior national team at the Ice Hockey World Championships. The Israeli national team is not a top team in the world, but thats not asked for in this criteria.
 * I think he passes WP:NHOCKEY very clearly, especially because his appearances in the Asia League which is fully professional and the highest tier league in Korea and Japan. Being a main player in the Israeli national team playing at the World Championships for years strengthens the notability argument further. Regarding WP:GNG I could definitely find news about him as he is a main player of the Israeli national team and I would also argue per WP:NEXIST and WP:OFFLINE that there is coverage of him in Korean and Japanese language sources which are probably harder to find (especially since the Nippon Paper Cranes seem to be the strongest team in Japan nationally, as they regularly win the All Japan Ice hockey Championship). Dead Mary (talk) 09:56, 14 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete: Doesn't meet the GNG beyond casual mentions and routine sports reporting of the sort explicitly debarred by WP:ROUTINE. As far as Dead Mary's Keep vote goes, it's founded on a number of altogether-too-common misconceptions.  First off, "top professional league" does not mean, and for no iteration of any NSPORTS subordinate criteria has meant, "the leading professional league in every single nation-state or polity," which would inevitably lead to claims that a beer league in Brunei or Lesotho passed criterion #1, as long as someone slipped each player a fiver.  The list of leagues which are considered to meet each criterion is linked to the guideline, to which I refer people. Secondly, our longstanding intent and consensus is that competing for the World Championship means competing for the World Championship, which means the top pool in any given year; we've never defined the exact nomenclature because the IIHF, irritatingly, changes its terminology periodically.  The Israeli team, never ranking higher than #32nd in the world, has never come remotely close to qualifying for the Championship pool, and only once in its history (and only for a single year) made it as far as the second pool.   Ravenswing   16:33, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Well then the NHOCKEY guideline is entirely misleading and should be rewritten. Was the Asia League ever evaluated if it does pass the presumption that a player in this league is likely to meet the general notability guideline, similar to leagues listed in the linked essay? The AL is the top league for the entirety of East-Asia and not comparable with a "beer league in Nepal". Whats the difference between Eizenman and players like this, this or this? A quick search shows that those guys have 0 reception per GNG at least in the web (only a few routine mentions), but we still assume that they are notable per default, while we delete Eizenman who plays for years in a national team and the highest league in East Asia? I know thats a WP:Other stuff exists comparison but I want to make the argument that NHOCHKEY and the attached league list seems to be very flawed.
 * The same is for the "played in a national team" criteria. If this line is meant to be "played in a national team which was once one of the 16 best teams in the world" then it should be changed to reflect that. I dont care that much about Eizenman, but I find this SNG very inconsistent. Dead Mary (talk) 18:57, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
 * If you, yourself, wish to vette the player base of the Asia League to gauge whether the overwhelming majority of its players can meet the GNG, no doubt we'd be grateful for the effort. That being said, if you have particular expertise to bear on the subject of gauging the relative strength and notability of ice hockey leagues, feel free to chime in on the talk page at NHOCKEY/LA. Beyond that, though, you're being quite inconsistent.  How do you go from (without, apparently, any attempt to check) assuming that Eizenman must have reliable coverage in Japanese or Korean-language sources -- ice hockey not being a particularly important sport in either nation -- to assuming that your three examples don't, playing in a hockey-mad nation like the Czech Republic?  I'd want more than a "quick search," and preferably one by an editor with Czech language skills.   Ravenswing   21:19, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
 * It is not about "what you want", it is about what our guidelines say. And those 3 guys fail WP:GNG by a large margin. I said what I mean, apparently you didnt understand me. When I said those guys have 0 RS coverage I mean it, there is literally zero RS coverage on them, no sources, nothing except a few listings. There is no need to know Czech when there is nothing to translate. Not surprisingly those articles are 1 sentence stubs. So if the coverage of the Czech first ice hockey league is not completely offline in 2016 those guys are clearly not notable and WP:NHOCKEY fails it purpose by all means. The point is those 3 guys are not the only examples, there are a lot of similar one sentence 0 coverage players like those from similar leagues, but apparently WikiProject Ice Hockey don't cares.


 * Anyway this discussion is meaningless and derailing. As I said before I don't care about Eizenman, I just wanted to point out how flawed WP:NHOCKEY is. The difference between Eizenman and those Czech guys is accessibility to search for WP:GNG RS. The Czech WWW is easily searchable even by a non-Czech speakers as their webpages are wholly crawled by Google and we all use the same writing system. Asian countries have a different writing system and their internet is not as well crawled by Western search engines. Therefore I did argue that the assumption that he fails WP:GNG was prematurely. However since I dont think a Japanese or Korean speaker will chime in and deliver some sources during the next days he indeed fails WP:GNG. Therefore I switch to delete, and call it a day. Dead Mary (talk) 00:21, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 12:22, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 12:22, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 12:22, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ice hockey-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 12:22, 16 October 2016 (UTC)


 * keep Proquest news archive search turned up bit a bit of coverage of his career, including a McClatchey wire service article profiling him ans speculating about his future (added ot article). Also, coverage in the Canadian Jewish News, a RS that seemed to be the obvious place to look for coverage, "Eizenman takes hockey skills to Japan and Korea,"   ; "Eizenman looks to score on and off the ice,", and more similar  form which article can be expanded.  Ran only those two, quick searches.  More searches would likely produce more results.  He's not Gordie Howe, but he certainly passes  WP:GNG.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:04, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Eizenman had a bit of a moment about a decade ago, coverage like this: "Israel’s ice man: Oren Eizenman feels at home playing minor league hockey in Stockton," in JWeekly, . And The Globe and Mail headline: "Hockey tournament a breakaway success in Israel," text, "Oren Eizenman, 24, whom coaches expect to land a spot on a European team if not in the NHL,..."   .  I suspect that it's the rarity/improbability factor, like a Jamaican bobsled team. But the coverage to pass WP:GNG is there.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:15, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
 * In that same "Jamaican Bobsled" category, I sourced his college career on the team of one of America's great engineering colleges (NOT one of America's major collegiate sports powers) to a book rather charmingly titled Skating Engineers.E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:15, 16 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Note that I am not arguing that he passes WP:NHOCKEY; I have not looked at that set of criteria. I argue simply that coverage exists to pass WP:GNG.E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:15, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep - As E.M.Gregory found, he has significant coverage in Canadian Jewish News, particularly the 2nd article (but the 1st isn't bad either). That all counts as significant coverage from a single source, but the JWeekly article also provides substantial coverage.  I would regard the Globe and Mail article as more of a passing mention, but I did find this article about him in the Hartford Courant.  So I think there is enough coverage in enough sources to meet GNG. Rlendog (talk) 14:23, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep I don't understand why this is even up for discussion. Per WP:NHOCKEY if you played in the World Championship you are instantly notable. Since he played in 2004, 2005, 2006, 2013, and 2014, I don't see why this would even be a question. -  Galatz Talk  13:41, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep - sources found seem to indicate a GNG pass. -- Hockeyben (talk - contribs) 16:28, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep Clearly fails WP:NHOCKEY, but like his brother, has a marginal claim to GNG.18abruce (talk) 20:17, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep Though he fails WP:NHOCKEY, he passes WP:GNG, per the sources discovered by E.M.Gregory and Rlendog. Ejgreen77 (talk) 01:35, 22 October 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.