Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Orhan Murad Osmanoğlu


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   merge to Osmanoğlu family. causa sui (talk) 16:31, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Orhan Murad Osmanoğlu

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Walled garden of articles about a family of fourth- and fifth-generation descendants of a former ruling dynasty. All created by one single-purpose account, probably autobiographical. See precedent at already-deleted Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Osman Selaheddin Osmanoğlu. Notability is WP:NOTINHERITED. All of these persons are or were unremarkable private citizens, with no public role and no public attention on them; no substantial independent sources. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:31, 8 August 2011 (UTC)


 * There are some printed sources (except Burke's Royal Families of the World: Africa & the Middle East, family tree in Harrap's An Encyclopedia of World History:) mentioned to Mahmud Namık (Mahmud Namik, Mahmut Namık):

1. Hanzâde Sultanefendi, Mehmet Ferit Ulusoy, İsmet Bozdağ, Osmanlı Hanedanı Saray Notları 3, Tekin Yayınları, ISBN 9789754782226, p. 25.

2. Belleten, Vol. 70, Türk Tarih Kurumu Basımevi, 2007, p. 582.

3. Murat Bardakçı, Son Osmanlılar: Osmanlı Hanedanının Sürgün ve Miras Öyküsü, Gri Yayınları, 1991, ISBN 9789757652137, pp. 58-60.

-- Takabeg (talk) 08:57, 8 August 2011 (UTC)


 * At present, Delete Mahmud Namık Osmanoğlu, Orhan Murad Osmanoğlu, Selim Süleyman Osmanoğlu, Ayşe Gülnev Osmanoğlu, Ömer Abdülmecid Osmanoğlu -- Takabeg (talk) 09:04, 8 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the source links. From number (1) I can see only a snippet, which looks like a mere passing remark mentioning Mahmut Namık. The book seems to be primarily about a period of history (1908/09) when Namık wasn't even born yet, so can you figure out what it is actually saying about him? (2) also looks like a passing remark mentioning Mahmut Namık among the grandchildren of Sultan Mehmed Reşad. (3) Murat Bardakçı's book about the "Last Ottomans" would seem to be the only source here that comes close to anything substantial, but can you verify he's really treating Namık as a biographical subject of more than passing interest? (And even if he did, we'd still not have multiple non-trivial coverage). Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:26, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions.  — • Gene93k (talk) 15:13, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Turkey-related deletion discussions.  — Takabeg (talk) 23:47, 8 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Merge and redirect all to a new article Osmanoğlu family. --Lambiam 09:21, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * There are multiple other pages on people with the same level of notability e.g. Franz, Duke of Bavaria, Prince Robert, Count of La Marche, Prince Foulques, Duke of Aumale, Prince Bertrand of Orléans-Braganza. Why remove these ones and not the others?--MissyMaddie (talk) 12:11, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I haven't checked all those other cases, but each of them needs to be judged on its own merits, and WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS-type arguments won't help us a lot here. It all depends on how much of a public figure somebody is and how much published coverage there is. Some former ruling houses are still very much in the public eye (due to wealth, ongoing involvement in social or political affairs, society "celebrity" status, scandals, relations with other houses that are still ruling, or whatever other reasons). Some are not. Prince Robert, Count of La Marche seems like a plausible deletion candidate to me at first sight; Franz, Duke of Bavaria has quite a few public roles which might even make him meet notability standards independently of his nobility status. There is certainly no general rule that all descendants of ruling houses are automatically included; I remember quite a few similar deletion cases we've had. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:41, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * That makes sense. I support Lambian's idea of merging them all into Osmanoglu Family. Some members of the family are active in current Turkish politics so that would be relevant too.--MissyMaddie (talk) 15:55, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * There is an article about the House of Osman, however, it doesn't deal with the family but an administrative concept of the Ottoman Empire. Nonetheless the proper title is House of Osmanoglu.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:14, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Merge and redirect to a new article to be called Ottoman Imperial Family (along the lines of Greek Royal Family, Bulgarian Royal Family, Romanian Royal Family etc). Some notability is evident from some of the 'find sources' options but perhaps not enough for individual entries at present. - dwc lr (talk) 01:14, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Keep for Mahmud Namık (Mahmut Namık, Mahmud Namik etc...) some of his episodes can establish his notability. Takabeg (talk) 01:41, 10 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment: The "precedent" cited is not a precedent for this case. That article was deleted as an unreferenced BLP.  Night w   08:00, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Just for the record, the Osman Selaheddin Osmanoğlu case I cited as a precedent was extremely similar to the ones here (IIRC, he's the father of several of the younger family members in this batch). It was essentially the same situation, both in terms of article content and sourcing and in terms of the nomination argument. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:54, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Merge all into House of Osmanoğlu as suggested by other editors. Unless their individual actions have been notable enough to talk about (doubtful), their relation to one-another and to the Osman dynasty can be described a single article.  Night w   08:00, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment. The term Osmanoğlu family (and in Turkey the Turkish equivalent Osmanoğlu ailesi) is commonly used, but (as far as I know) the term House of Osmanoğlu is nowhere in use other than in this discussion. --Lambiam 13:43, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.