Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Oskaloosa High School (Kansas)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Sorry I cant find any consensus here without discarding policy based votes for one side over the other. Spartaz Humbug! 20:56, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

Oskaloosa High School (Kansas)

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Subject fails WP:NSCHOOL, WP:GNG, and WP:ORG. Per rules, subject must have "significant coverage in independent, multiple, reliable, secondary sources," which it doesn't, except in typical listings. Some historical significance has been claimed, related to civil rights movement episode in the Oskaloosa area some decades ago, but apart from this, not much. The Gnome (talk) 07:43, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions.  samee  converse  09:24, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Kansas-related deletion discussions.  samee  converse  09:24, 19 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep or may be merged. Generally such guidelines are not that strict when it applies to Notability (high schools), and coverage does exist for example. A high school shouldn't be considered notable only when some incidents that attract national news coverage occur, which unfortunately does happen. Acnetj (talk) 09:31, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I'll just comment that the coverage mentioned above amounts to no more than mention of an incident involving a student of that school; it's not about the school itself. The school does exists; that much is not disputed and we need no proof of it. The only question put forth is whether or not the subject of the article meets the criteria of independent notability as set down by the rules. -The Gnome (talk) 14:39, 19 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment - Acnetj would seem correct by bringing up WP:NHS, frequently considered. The Gnome is correct by nominating this as WP:NSCHOOL which is somewhat stricter - the key mention in WP:NONPROFIT is "[supported by news sources] outside the organization's local area.", specifically mentioning schools. In effect, looking round, the formal rules are often repudiated by AfD consensus - really WP:NSCHOOL seems to be treated more as a guideline than a policy (and yes I am aware of numbers of AfD actions between the three users here). Nosebagbear (talk) 10:36, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment WP:NSCHOOL is a rule, while WP:HIGHSCHOOL is an essay. Moreover, the latter is a descriptive rather than a prescriptive text, i.e. it describes what's happening; it does not prescribe what should happen. (Articles on high schools and secondary schools, with rare exceptions, have been kept when nominated at AfD.) But even the WP:HIGHSCHOOL essay states quite clearly that articles on schools must be able to meet notability standards, such as those at WP:N and WP:NORG specifically. This is the basis of the nomination, in fact. -The Gnome (talk) 14:39, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Minor Comment - As a fully distinct point, any merge would logically go to Oskaloosa, Kansas Nosebagbear (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 10:38, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Seems the appropriate route to follow, if no consensus to delete is reached. -The Gnome (talk) 14:55, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Only if there isn't a keep consensus, and NC vs merge usually gets a relisting Nosebagbear (talk) 15:32, 19 April 2018 (UTC)


 * keep as Notability (high schools) essay points out, high school articles are typically kept. Granted there is an abundance of local coverage (so much it's hard to leaf through the listings of obituaries and other local events), but the events from a decade ago (noted by the nominator) would also clear WP:GNG and notability is not temporary.  If this one is deleted, it will (like so many others) eventually be brought back when someone finds "the golden ticket" of articles printed online to show that "yes this is as good as any other high school article that we have kept."--Paul McDonald (talk) 13:20, 19 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment article about an issue regarding censorship article on new teachers in 2016    AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 19:20, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep. High schools are generally kept at AfD. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 20:13, 19 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Weak Keep Tagging my personal view on the dispute - in case of similar level disputes, falling towards keep is the right thing to do Nosebagbear (talk) 20:17, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Ugh. Do not keep just because it is a high school. There needs to be potential to write some sort of article based on its history. There's mention of the school in some history records in Kansas, but still looking for newspaper articles or books that show significant coverage. AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 23:26, 19 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Question According to the relevant Wikipedia article, there are some twenty six thousand public high-schools in the United States alone (2001 census). I'd guess there are at least as many in Europe, if not more, but let's not extend this beyond the US. If the default position is to allow articles about high schools to remain up, no matter what, are we to eventually have a Wikipedia article for each and every one of those twenty six thousand schools? -The Gnome (talk) 23:35, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment I don't necessarily have an issue with that just because there is a high number of high schools. Wikipedia has articles on many things as well including Congressional and other legislative districts. I think high schools are as notable if not notable than these things, if not even more than school districts. If you're a student or a parent, you deal with school as an institution by itself. You don't consider yourself dealing with a branch of a school district. This is very different than eating at a franchise fast food chain or going to a branch of an international bank. When there's a school reunion, there's a school reunion, not a school district reunion. I acknowledge that some schools, just by virtue of status and history, will be more notable than others (such as a comprehensive high school with a 100 year old history versus some newly formed charter school with low enrollment, or a continuation school for troubled students). My point is that the notability should not be set at when the high school has gotten some kind of national news coverage. High schools generally don't get national news coverage unless it is for some kind of human interest stories, or some tragic events. Acnetj (talk) 00:43, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I understand and accept that Wikipedia is slanted towards education. And that, consequently, it takes a more lenient view of schools, as subjects of articles. I guess this means we'd be OK with each and every one of the primary and secondary educational institutions in the world having its own article in Wikipedia. And why not, after all? The bandwidth appears to be freely available. This is very interesting. -The Gnome (talk) 06:45, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I am not suggesting that every school should have its own article. I just think that a comprehensive high school should not be considered for deletion for the "lack of notability," with a standard that many schools cannot consistently meet. I accept the current consensus on the topic. Acnetj (talk) 21:05, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
 * More comment And one of the things that make educational institution notable is the alumni, while a very interesting detail it is apart from the school's current status (or the status when that notable alumni were attending while not notable). I think it would be valuable that Wikipedia can include notable alumni on the school's page, but should not have the notability of the school be considered whether the school has notable alumni. Acnetj (talk) 00:50, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks. What you're saying is essentially a suggestion for the content of articles about schools; it has nothing to do with notability as a criterion for inclusion. Again, the sole criterion appears to be the mere attribute of the subject, i.e. of being a school; not its notability at all. Which reaffirms the position that every school can and should have its own Wikipedia page . Those who do not already have one should be made aware of this and get up to speed. -The Gnome (talk) 06:45, 20 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete there is no indepth indepent coverage that would lead to a show of notability. John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:12, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep: It has been extremely rare (if not never) that an American public high school has been deemed non-notable.  Sure, we delete the schools of brown-skinned people in countries with less online news content, where spammy articles without citation have been created, but that's a separate issue.--Milowent • hasspoken  18:35, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep Schools are generally (overwhelmingly) found to be notable. We don't delete articles because they are incomplete. Arguments along the lines of "well if we gave every school a page..." are irrelevant. Wikipedia is not paper, there is not a finite number of pages. Egaoblai (talk) 22:42, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Therefore, in so many words, every American, public school does in fact merit a Wikipedia page ("infinite number of pages", etc) and no AfD should ever be raised again about an American, public school. I honestly did not know this. -The Gnome (talk) 06:18, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, if the school is verifiable (it can be shown to exist) then it will be notable too, as schools are reference points and instituions for communities. Egaoblai (talk) 11:26, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks again, Egaoblai. You might want to follow or contribute to this discussion. And that goes for everyone else too. The issue is more significant than a single AfD. -The Gnome (talk) 12:38, 21 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep the historical and other sources in the article do provide evidence of notability, and is further confirmed by looking at the multiple sources in the search engines, please do the search appropriately, not quotes - there are sources over decades), see also, it's independently nationally ranked. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:06, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep in addition to the above arguments, another reason - morbid, but practical - is that the U.S. high schools is where school shootings tend to occur. See for example: Forest High School (Florida), the site of the latest shooting. (Fortunately, no one was killed.) In general, high schools are of sufficient public interest and should be kept. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:30, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment - I sure hope anyone who closes this as keep does so because someone has demonstrated significant coverage in reliable sources independent of the subject beyond routine local news stories (i.e. WP:N), and not because of the bulk of the keep !vote rationales presented thus far. I don't know if this should be kept or deleted (I haven't researched it because I was made aware of this thread via a discussion that could be framed as canvassing, and thus won't be !voting), but I will be disappointed if the closer gives any weight at all to arguments based on a failed proposal-turned-essay, arguments that directly conflict with this well advertised, well attended, unchallenged RfC (i.e. the circular "keep because we have kept schools in the past"), or arguments that are either WP:AADD or otherwise have no basis in policy, e.g. "keep because we should keep high schools," "keep because it's useful," "keep because they're important," "keep because famous people went there", "keep because they're usually notable", or -- I don't even know how to classify this one -- "keep because someone might get shot there someday" [??]. &mdash; Rhododendrites  talk \\ 00:44, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
 * For the record, I did not try to "canvass" anyone. The discussion I started over at the Notability talk-page I consider, of course, far more important than a single AfD process, such as this one. Perhaps I was in error to start the general discussion before this AfD closed down. Take care. -The Gnome (talk) 08:38, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I have no reason to suspect anything but good faith.--Paul McDonald (talk) 13:50, 22 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment So far, the voting is overwhelmingly in favor of keeping the article, running something like 8 to 1. Note, however, that the justifications provided for 7 out of the 8 "keep" votes are all along the same line, i.e. every high school is inherently notable and therefore worthy of an article:
 * Generally guidelines [such as WP:ORG and WP:NSCHOOL] are not that strict when it applies to high schools. A high school shouldn't be considered notable only when some incidents that attract national news coverage occur.
 * High school articles are typically kept.
 * High schools are generally kept at AfD.
 * Falling towards 'keep' is the right thing to do.
 * It has been extremely rare (if not never) that an American public high school has been deemed non-notable.
 * Schools are generally (overwhelmingly) found to be notable. We don't delete articles because they are incomplete. If the school is verifiable (it can be shown to exist) then it will be notable too.
 * In general, high schools are of sufficient public interest and should be kept.
 * I'm eagerly waiting not so much for the decision but for the justification the closing admin will provide. -The Gnome (talk) 08:38, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
 * It's a good point, I admit. High school articles that go to deletion discussions will sometimes end up at this point and on many levels I find agreement.  I'll offer one more reason to keep:  the policy ignore all rules.  Editors overwhelmingly and consistently support having articles on high schools.  Consensus is a cruel mistress...--Paul McDonald (talk) 13:49, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
 * And I'm saying, Paul McDonald, let's make an honest woman out of consensus! If our preferred mistress is "keep all school articles," then we should get married to it officially, i.e. have an rule explicitly saying so. Why have this waste of time and space on AfDs about schools? Let's make it official. That's why I initiated the general discussion. -The Gnome (talk) 08:54, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Best of luck to you. I can't help but agree with your logic, but I'm not enthusiastic about personally takings on such a challenge.  Until then, back to this article in question I retain my position for the reasons above..--Paul McDonald (talk) 11:08, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
 * thanks, this is good summary of the reasons we should keep this article. Egaoblai (talk) 17:36, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Well explained. It is somewhat indicative of the community being slightly lazy since otherwise we'd encourage formally changing the notability policy on it.Nosebagbear (talk) 08:28, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I would have precisely zero problems with Wikipedia changing the policy and allowing every single school on mother Earth to be able to have, by default, its own, separate, Wikipedia page. (Such a policy would mandate placing exceptions to WP:NOTDIRECTORY, as well, but that's trivial work.) But I'm very uncomfortable with a custom, i.e. a social consensus, nullifying a rule yet us doing nothing about the rule. That's just intellectual and social laziness, which rarely comes to anything good. -The Gnome (talk) 09:07, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm still trying to figure out how this will meet WP:WITHIN when there's nothing to say about it other than that it appears as passing mentions in random articles. AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 09:46, 23 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep plenty of coverage in reliable independent sources of this historic public high school. Contrary to various misstatements we do not keep articles on all schools or even all high schools. Just major notable ones such as this one serving its community for more than 100 years. FloridaArmy (talk) 09:03, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I quoted verbatim all statements, precisely so that there'd be no "misstatements." On the substance of your input, longevity does not equal notability. -The Gnome (talk) 09:07, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I still don't see it meeting GNG if that's what you're assuming. No articles have been added to the article or suggested to be added to the article that have demonstrated significant coverage. So again you're assuming it is inherently notable on the sole basis of being an American public high school that's over 100 years old. AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 09:46, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
 * are you sure it's not coverage for the Iowa high school of the same name?   So I am not sure what this "plenty of coverage" is.  AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 19:16, 23 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep. It has the kind of coverage typical of an American public high school, and enough of it to pass GNG as it has been applied to such schools by long, long standing consensus: educational issues, sports ,  historical content , a notable alumnus , news coverage and controversy , etc. --Arxiloxos (talk) 22:13, 23 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Historical context and related refs analyzed:
 * https://www.kshs.org/p/jefferson-county-schools-bibliography/13648 This shows a list of entries for Jefferson County School Superintendent. Jefferson County Public Schools Directory, 1899-1900 and other years. Only shows existence of the Jefferson County Public Schools district in Oskaloosa
 * http://www.legendsofkansas.com/oskaloosa.html mentions "it also supported a high school" but does not name the particular school. It is assumed to be Oskaloosa High School. Prior to that mention, it only discusses schoolhouses.
 * http://www.kancoll.org/books/cutler/jefferson/jefferson-co-p11.html only discusses the town's schoolhouses from 19th century. It discusses the establishment of a school district and three (and then later four) departments, but does not say what the name of the school is or what grades they teach as they haven't figured out what "high school" was.
 * https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/kansas/districts/oskaloosa-public-schools/oskaloosa-jr-sr-high-school-8112 Lists the school as combined with the Jr. school. Directory entry as typical of American high schools.
 * https://books.google.com/books?id=OHmuMh2nfK4C&lpg=PA224&dq=oskaloosa%20kansas%20school&pg=PA202#v=onepage&q=oskaloosa%20kansas%20school&f=false - Strong Arts Strong Schools Only talks about Oskaloosa schools in general, not specifically the high school, and only saying they have art programs
 * https://books.google.com/books?id=69aeAAAAMAAJ&q=oskaloosa+kansas https://books.google.com/books?id=GvpZKhd01lsC&lpg=PT252&dq=oskaloosa%20kansas%20habitat&pg=PT252#v=onepage&q=oskaloosa%20kansas%20habitat&f=false The Child-school Interface - only discusses that University of Kansas up a research program in Oskaloosa to observe children there.
 * https://www.google.com/search?q=oskaloosa+bears Just general searches for sports team
 * https://books.google.com/books?id=WfQSnHRbe-wC&lpg=PA38&ots=W2LYgUUd2l&dq=oskaloosa%20terabithia&pg=PA38#v=onepage&q=oskaloosa%20terabithia&f=false - Bridge to Terabithia reviewing book for profanities - applies to Oskaloosa schools in general
 * https://www.wsj.com/articles/rural-youth-chase-big-city-dreams-1498478401 - Um, no, that applies to Oskaloosa High School in Iowa, not Kansas.
 * That leaves the articles concerning the student journalist who was involved in controversial publishing / censored. AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 22:35, 23 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment: After 9 years of dabbling at AfD, I can tell you this is never going to be deleted in a million years, so let's put this AfD out of its misery, we can spend our volunteer time much more productively elsewhere!--Milowent • hasspoken 12:45, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Jimmy Wales was very clear, we gotta keep on this for another 72 hours straight, no rest, no sleep. I envy y'all volunteers. -The Gnome (talk) 14:47, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
 * What really would be helpful would be if someone with a newspapers.com subscription would comb through the archives for "The Oskaloosa Independent" (1860-2001) and "The Oskaloosa Times" (1891-1916). A free search (I can't access the content, though) shows me the Independent has 1,874 matches for "oskaloosa high school" and 7,585 matches for "high school".--Milowent • hasspoken  16:40, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that would lead me to believe that significant coverage should be available more than just passing sports and random non-notable student/alumni mentions, which may still be like 99% of the articles listed. AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 18:21, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Local-media reports is most of what seems to be available for this unit; could be a criterion for future school-notability guidelines, though. -The Gnome (talk) 21:38, 24 April 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.